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Rushmore is offline Rushmore
2009-10-28 , 18:13
Posts: 1,255 | Thanked: 393 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ US
#91
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
I don't get that. The time to be vocal is during this preview period immediately following my being given an N900...
Sorry. I was referring to people that assume the function is in the N900. They will not complain yet since they do not know yet. Can not be vocal about it if you do not know (ignorance is bliss).
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-10-28 , 18:16
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#92
Originally Posted by TheLongshot View Post
As a software engineer by trade, I can understand having a level of indirection between the developers and the customer. Fact is, customer requests CAN get in the way of a developer doing his job, depending on how combative the customer is. There aren't usually problems if the customer is well behaved, but when they are not, it can turn into a mess. That's why I find the request for 'transparency' being something that isn't all that attractive to the developers. The indirection allows them to get the work that they need to get done, done without outside interference. It is up to management to interface with the bug list and set priorities of items on the list based on difficulty and overall usefulness of any fix to the general community.

You might not agree with the priority list, but in the end you are just one stakeholder out of many and the team may have bigger fish to fry that affect more users than just yourself.
I essentially agree and most of your points are not in contention-- with the caveat (as GeneralAntilles pointed out) that the traditional development process is often at odds with the FOSS world. But Nokia chose that tightrope, so....

But your very last statement, maybe unwittingly, actually supports what GA and I have been saying. Priority should naturally address majority needs and expectations. I'm simply asserting that current modes of usage are a defacto standard for many, many users and to take such functionality away, particularly in a flagship device, is likely to not sit well with many users.

This isn't sheer conjecture either. We're not talking about something nebulous. We're talking about features people use.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2009-10-28 at 18:39.
 

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TheLongshot is offline TheLongshot
2009-10-28 , 18:31
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#93
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
I essentially agree and most of your points are not in contention-- with the caveat (as GeneralAntilles pointed out) that the traditional development process is often at odds with the FOSS world. But Nokia chose that tightrope, so....
Well, the FOSS world isn't exactly full of big software projects run by corporations. You CAN work things so that developers interact directly with customers, but they will be spending more time managing the customer rather than actually doing the work that needs to be done. Personally, I'd rather have someone else running interference while I'm focusing on the work at hand.

But you very last statement, maybe unwittingly, actually supports what GA and I have been saying. Priority should naturally address majority needs and expectations. I'm simply asserting that current modes of usage are a defacto standard for many, many users and to take such functionality away, particularly in a flagship device, is likely to not sit well with many users.

This isn't sheer conjecture either. We're not talking about something nebulous. We're talking about features people use.
Maybe it is because I only have experience with dumbphones, but I've never run across a call log where you could divide up the call list. It has usually been one big long list. So, for me, I wouldn't notice anything missing. I can see the usefulness in what you guys are talking about, but it isn't a feature that I've had on my phones, nor would it be one that I would feel was missing.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-10-28 , 18:38
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#94
Originally Posted by TheLongShot
Maybe it is because I only have experience with dumbphones, but I've never run across a call log where you could divide up the call list. It has usually been one big long list. So, for me, I wouldn't notice anything missing. I can see the usefulness in what you guys are talking about, but it isn't a feature that I've had on my phones, nor would it be one that I would feel was missing.
Understood, and my apologies for generalizing-- I was hoping the context would indicate the audience... in fact that's why I rhetorically asked who the target demographic is, to avoid speaking for the wrong parties.

But yeah, this is common, expected smartphone capability. Granted Nokia is striving to get out of that category with the N900, but fair or not, it's going to be compared.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2009-10-28 at 18:42.
 
Rushmore is offline Rushmore
2009-10-28 , 18:51
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#95
Would it be possible to add a search feature of entering text in order to jump to a particular message? Start typing, and as you do, the list filters based on that? This would seem to not conflict with any design premise and not require an interface change.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-10-28 , 18:55
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#96
Originally Posted by Rushmore View Post
Would it be possible to add a search feature of entering text in order to jump to a particular message? Start typing, and as you do, the list filters based on that? This would seem to not conflict with any design premise and not require an interface change.
Arg! That actually would be more difficult than what most are requesting here: a single click to filter missed calls, etc.
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juxxxer is offline juxxxer
2009-10-28 , 19:13
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#97
Hi,

Somebody replied that you can do widget for showing missed calls etc. So you basically have the access to the call (incoming, outgoing, missed) data?

Can somebody just make widget which have these filters (or even widget where you can choose tabs/filters/all in one list)? If access to data I don't see problem developing those.

But I believe that I'm missing something, since this feels trivial.
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-10-28 , 20:02
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#98
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
I guess if people would ask at the same time that why aren't more Nokians actively involved in these forums and at the same time would read the general tone and respect level of the individual messages, for instance in this particular thread, you would perhaps see some hints of the potential conflict built within.
OTOH, the general tone and respect level of individual messages by Nokians (not you, ragnar) I read in the past wasn't much better. They still didn't shoo me away... yet.

Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
The UI style guidance was to try to simplify the UI's, and one clear target for these was to clear out tabbed UI's, clear out split panel UI's as much as it is possible. Doing an exception for only one application wouldn't make sense in terms of UI consistency. Why could Call UI only do this and the other applications would not then do it. Sometimes overall UI consistency overrides the individual optimization you might want to do on some particular application.
You won my sympathy with the 2 sentences I highlighted in this paragraph. I'm obsessed with consistency, guidlines, standards. I feel physical pain when on my Diablo-powered N810 I have to use an application that does not look like it should... A menu with icons! Pain!! A toolbar not at the bottom! Pain!! etc. - Even if the way it's designed is better for the specific task, I'd still prefer to have it "play by the rules". I'm anankastic about such things. People at my company love to invite me to projects that require UI design (in web applications) for this reason... and after each of these projects, they hate me a little more.

There's just one difference:
If I'm involved with the creation of the design principles and guidelines, and if at some later stage in application development I find out that they don't work for a certain part of the UI, my brain switches to error mode. UI guidelines must be so sophisticated that they can be followed. If you stumble over them in an application and can't do what you think is desirable, it's a problem with the UI style guides, not with the application.

I know I have to be careful with what I say about Fremantle design issues. I don't agree with the overall direction, so it's somewhat difficult for me to distinguish between things I don't like because they just perfectly support what you want to achieve with Maemo... and those that I don't like because they feel wrong, no matter which direction you'd want Maemo to go.
But if we take what you said as an example:
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
clear out tabbed UI's, clear out split panel UI's
It is my understanding that these principles aren't established because split views or tabs are bad as such, but as a compromise. You had to deal with dramatic loss of useable sreen estate as compared to previous versions: small screen, large UI elements for finger usage... You cannot have Modest display an Outlook-like 3-pane-view under these circumstances. Although in principle a 3-pane-view would be more efficient and easier to work with. That's my understanding. You didn't kill split panels and introduce these stacked windows because you wanted it that way, but because you needed a compromise to present the information in large list elements on a tiny screen.

So what does all of this mean for the ongoing discussion? I would have hoped for more openness discussing the underlying design principles rather than this one issue with call history.

How's saying:
"Well, we didn't find a different way to do it within the confines of our style guide, but yes, there's room for improvement. We can't change this one list easily now because we don't want to break UI consistency, but we can always discuss new ideas about the design principles. If you have ideas on how to improve the style guide, please make sure that your idea will work in all possible scenarios, especially think of the following cases that we found hard to deal with...." etc etc

How's that? I'm not sure how much a community can contribute to such issues, I don't know how much Nokia would want the community to discuss such issues in public (because they are part of the icing that will make Maemo devices stand out in comparison), but I feel it would be the ideal reaction to criticism about the UI. Saying that the criticism is invalid because the item in question adheres to the UI style guide is... - second best.
 

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floffe is offline floffe
2009-10-28 , 21:10
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#99
Originally Posted by TheLongshot View Post
Maybe it is because I only have experience with dumbphones, but I've never run across a call log where you could divide up the call list. It has usually been one big long list.
On my current dumbest-of-the-dumb Samsung M110 I get to such a list if pressing the "start call" button from the home screen. If I go to the menu and then call log, I have missed, recieved and dialled all separated. So it's not something that only exists in smartphones.
 

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Rushmore is offline Rushmore
2009-10-28 , 21:34
Posts: 1,255 | Thanked: 393 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ US
#100
Jeesh. We need to just get these darn N900's and see how things are with the final product that ships- maybe we will be surprised- even with the phone function

We already know the other stuff will rock.
 
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