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Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2006-12-17 , 00:40
Posts: 3,220 | Thanked: 326 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
#21
A few remarks:
- The "success" of Windows didn't come from there only being One (there are in fact dozens of Windows "distros"), but from the strongarming business tactics of Microsoft.

- Asking for another distribution for the 770 is not asking for a different operating system; it's basically asking for a different window manager (yeah, I know, I'm underplaying it here).

- When people complain about the "underpoweredness" of the 770, they seem to forget that a lot of that horsepower goes to GTK and the rest of the GUI. I noticed the same thing (admittedly, long ago) on a pentium pc with 64 MB of RAM that would positively snail along with KDE but would Buzz Lightyear it with XFCE (a lightweight window manager with less featuritis and coded for speed). Power users (as in: those who have umpteen apps open all the time) might actually prefer a no-nonsense WM, with maybe a no-nonsense character inputter like Fitali, or XScribble.

- Having a straight-on distro without UI guidelines available would make porting applications so much easier. It would not be a distro for the 770 user Nokia had in mind, but there needn't be any confusion either, provided a decent package management is available.

- Personally, if I knew code from coke, I'd have a stab at Damn Small Linux. But that's just me...
 
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=DC= is offline =DC=
2006-12-17 , 01:44
Posts: 564 | Thanked: 8 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ Fayetteville, GA
#22
Yet another area a modular approach to flashing devices like the 770 would shine. Imagine being able to gather the window manager, custom UI, media player, web browser, etc. of your choosing into a directory the flasher application can access. The flasher app gives you the option to choose what you want to install during a flashing of the device and builds you a personalized OS that's only useful in the areas you want/need.

Much like the Linux version of flasher tool allows you to activate developer mode, you would have much more flexibility over what your 770 can or can't do. Of course just using the default settings to flash will give you the basic "complete package" we have with current binaries, but for advanced users it would be great to have the more advanced option.

I don't know if this is even possible, but I think this makes more sense than building yet another OS just for a more efficient window manager.
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Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2006-12-17 , 10:09
Posts: 3,220 | Thanked: 326 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
#23
Originally Posted by =DC=
Yet another area a modular approach to flashing devices like the 770 would shine. Imagine being able to gather the window manager, custom UI, media player, web browser, etc. of your choosing into a directory the flasher application can access. The flasher app gives you the option to choose what you want to install during a flashing of the device and builds you a personalized OS that's only useful in the areas you want/need.

Much like the Linux version of flasher tool allows you to activate developer mode, you would have much more flexibility over what your 770 can or can't do. Of course just using the default settings to flash will give you the basic "complete package" we have with current binaries, but for advanced users it would be great to have the more advanced option.

I don't know if this is even possible, but I think this makes more sense than building yet another OS just for a more efficient window manager.
OK, I officially take back my rant. Yours is so much cooler. Who do we bribe to get this puppy going?
 
fpp's Avatar
fpp is offline fpp
2006-12-17 , 17:35
Posts: 2,853 | Thanked: 968 times | Joined on Nov 2005
#24
Okay, so you would have an ultra-fast tablet without Gnome, and boatloads of apps because you could snatch them ready-made from other distributions. Maybe they would not be so very usable in 800*480 because they would be the hi-rez desktop originals with their bazillion toolbars and huge dialogs, but hey, that's the price of freedom (seen many examples of this on the Z - maybe there was an original reason for Hildon and Qtopia after all ?). Also we wouldn't have Wifi and BT anymore, as we couldn't use the existing binary (and presently closed) drivers. Now that would make for some serious battery life savings...
 
Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2006-12-17 , 18:04
Posts: 3,220 | Thanked: 326 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
#25
Originally Posted by fpp
Okay, so you would have an ultra-fast tablet without Gnome, and boatloads of apps because you could snatch them ready-made from other distributions. Maybe they would not be so very usable in 800*480 because they would be the hi-rez desktop originals with their bazillion toolbars and huge dialogs, but hey, that's the price of freedom (seen many examples of this on the Z - maybe there was an original reason for Hildon and Qtopia after all ?). Also we wouldn't have Wifi and BT anymore, as we couldn't use the existing binary (and presently closed) drivers. Now that would make for some serious battery life savings...
1. The "snatching" of apps wouldn't even be as easy as you claim, because they'd have to be recompiled for the 770's processor architecture.
2. I'd wager at least standard bluez would work on the 770 and that it wouldn't be that hard to reverse-engineer a WiFi solution.
3. You're actually making a case for a Nokia-independent distribution, by admitting that they don't play completely nice on the Open Source field.
 
jurop88 is offline jurop88
2006-12-17 , 18:17
Posts: 370 | Thanked: 443 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ Italy
#26
I continue replying here, still OT, because this thread is becoming very interesting... Obviously a mod could feel free to move on another topic best suited!
=DC= idea is very cool and probably a good idea to work on. I think many Nokians are lurking this forum, so every comments and idea could at least be noticed, and in the best case taken in account.
@ Karel, you made some points
A few remarks:
- The "success" of Windows didn't come from there only being One (there are in fact dozens of Windows "distros"), but from the strongarming business tactics of Microsoft.
yes, perhaps there are many Windows distros, but afaik on the same Win version, there is only one API, and it is the most important thing for third party developer. No comments about business tactics, it's another matter...
- Asking for another distribution for the 770 is not asking for a different operating system; it's basically asking for a different window manager (yeah, I know, I'm underplaying it here).
- When people complain about the "underpoweredness" of the 770, they seem to forget that a lot of that horsepower goes to GTK and the rest of the GUI. I noticed the same thing (admittedly, long ago) on a pentium pc with 64 MB of RAM that would positively snail along with KDE but would Buzz Lightyear it with XFCE (a lightweight window manager with less featuritis and coded for speed). Power users (as in: those who have umpteen apps open all the time) might actually prefer a no-nonsense WM, with maybe a no-nonsense character inputter like Fitali, or XScribble.
Well, I think that N770 WM is the lightest on the market... you don't have to consider only the WM but the whole desktop environment, i.e. the ambient that let you connect to the internet starting the browser (DBUS) or that recognize that one app is already running when you choose to open another document from the file manager avoiding to duplicate instances running and so on.
IMHO Nokillo is a good geek toy, its underpowerness comes well clear when you look @ web sites flash optimized or with many images. If you disable image loadings, it's rather impossible to let it slow down or crash due to low memory. Managing graphics need lots of ram and rather much horsepower do decompress jpeg images and move them around the memory, and here is where Nokillo leaks. The RSS reader has still some problems, expecially when there are lots of news to load into the GTKTreeWiev, but do you remember the OS2005 one, do you?
- Having a straight-on distro without UI guidelines available would make porting applications so much easier. It would not be a distro for the 770 user Nokia had in mind, but there needn't be any confusion either, provided a decent package management is available.
Again, Nokia made a big improvement from OS05 to OS06 with the PackageManager, but I agree with you, they have to improve. From the lists, they are looking for solutions, but in any case the backup should at least restore repositories already saved. And the best should be a semi-official repository where to find every app considered 'OK' for our N770s, but it's an hard way and personally have no hope about it.
We need better software from Nokia or 3rd party, light apps such as Costigan's MaemoMapper, perfectly fitted with the device. Better memory management (some interesting threads spots out from time to time on MaemoDev list), a good email app, a browser AJAX compatible light as much as possible, or perhaps in two different version which one is used depends on free memory (different options or libraries) and at least a flash 7 plugin, if it's compatible with current hardware specs. Thing that I don't know.
 
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fpp is offline fpp
2006-12-17 , 18:18
Posts: 2,853 | Thanked: 968 times | Joined on Nov 2005
#27
I'm just stating the facts as they stand now. There is a project in the Garage for an open driver for the Wifi hardware in the 770, but it isn't working yet. And yes, before the 2006 switch to armel, you could take binaries from debian or slackware and run them under ITOS2005 without recompiling any sources. I think I was the first to run Privoxy on the tablet that way.
 
jurop88 is offline jurop88
2006-12-17 , 18:21
Posts: 370 | Thanked: 443 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ Italy
#28
Oh, it's a good idea to append here also FPP idea from MaemoMapper thread of a starting applet instead of the menu voice. I use my N770 with fingers more and more, I never thought to have taken such a weird habit, but... hey, it rocks when used this way, just try using NaviCore or Canola and everybody outhere will understand!
 
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=DC= is offline =DC=
2006-12-17 , 18:58
Posts: 564 | Thanked: 8 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ Fayetteville, GA
#29
Okay guys, I had to post some of my thoughts about this on NET9. This discussion has gone off topic and will likely stay that way.

To keep the ball rolling, I think Nokia can afford to gradually give more freedom to users and developers of the platform and still keep it "tight". A lot of the UI progress is being made by groups of developers like the Canola team and the Media Streamer team, but no one wants to share the secret sauce, which is also limiting the growth of the platform.
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gammer is offline gammer
2007-02-25 , 21:48
Posts: 204 | Thanked: 15 times | Joined on Jan 2007 @ Berlin, Germany
#30
In case glhart@mac.com still needs a text editor: leafpad works well with OS2006 and OS2007; it can be started from within xterm as well as from the GUI. Sorry, am I off topic in the meanwhile?
 
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