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attila77 is offline attila77
2010-01-01 , 21:22
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#201
Originally Posted by ewan View Post
* No-one needs big monolithic firmware updates when you can do a package at a time. Test each one, then release each one.
If this were true, Linux distros would not have versions. But they do (and updates update between well defined sets of packages). Releasing package by package is HELL. Don't do it. It WILL kill your support people. Is it good for testing particular packages ? Yes. Is it good as a release strategy ? No.

* Testing is good; more testing is better. When you've got people jumping up and down offering to help you, let them.
Except it's not the testers who are loud. I did not see all that many "I want to beta test PR1.1 !" but rather "Where is my firmware update that fixes everything !".
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Matan is offline Matan
2010-01-01 , 21:37
Posts: 1,224 | Thanked: 1,763 times | Joined on Jul 2007
#202
Originally Posted by Mattj View Post
According to the bug report it does. I'll be happy just to have that fixed

@ Ewan. You can almost guarantee that if they quickly released and there were some bugs, Nokia would be ripped to shreds by the media.
You mean like releasing a phone that can't dial some numbers? Nokia certainly can't afford to do that.
 
Arif is offline Arif
2010-01-01 , 22:14
Posts: 296 | Thanked: 47 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#203
Can't they do it like Microsoft. Release a patch per bug/fix and Service Packs for new functionality/huge improvements .
Think of Windows XP and that you had to wait for SP1 for all the bugs to get fixed.
 
aspidites is offline aspidites
2010-01-01 , 22:43
Posts: 402 | Thanked: 229 times | Joined on Nov 2009 @ Missouri, USA
#204
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
If this were true, Linux distros would not have versions. But they do (and updates update
Slightly misleading. This seems to imply that all Linux distros have version numbers because they can't cope with a rolling release. Arch Linux (which I'm typing this from), Gentoo, and a slew of others seem to handle rolling releases quite well. In fact, I would say that this laptop is more stable than when it was running a Debian flavor of Linux.

Now, if you augmented that statement to say "If this where true, Debian-Based Linux distributions would not have versions" I would be more inclined to agree.(operative word here being more).

I still would argue that they could do like a lot of FOSS projects and have stable vs development/testing releases. For example, the GNOME project's odd number version scheme. Even better, they don't post the odd-numbered, unstable releases on the front page. In fact, I myself had to google just to find such releases. I think something like this would accomplish 3 things:
1) it would show the public that changes are being made
2) it would allow people who understand the implications behind an "unstable" releases to try out whats up-and-coming and submit bug reports and patches
3) it will give the non-techie types the confidence in knowing that if they download a particular firmware version, it will by-and-large be a stable product.

I think this pretty much lends to what has already been said about a tried-and-true system (eg extras, extras-testing, and extras-devel) being not only being feasible, but most probably appropriate.

[rant]
The fact that I have to wait for something that is already presumably working irks me. The fact that I have to wait on improvements on what is allegedly supposed to be open source only because it has to be released with other closed-source components irks me even Software availability (that is, being allowed to use bleeding-edge software as long as I was willing to get my hands dirty) are one of the reasons I switched from Windows to Linux. That this phone in some respects seems to take that liberty from me feels like a regression.

I can't wait until telephony works in Mer.
[/rant

PS- is it ironic that oFono is sponsored by Nokia yet, once consumed by Mer will be Maemo's competition?
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j.s is offline j.s
2010-01-01 , 23:28
Posts: 486 | Thanked: 251 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#205
Originally Posted by koroviov View Post
just for the record: according to you, which crowd did this promo cater to?
Apparently not anyone viewing it on an n900.
 

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ewan is offline ewan
2010-01-01 , 23:40
Posts: 445 | Thanked: 572 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Oxford
#206
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
If this were true, Linux distros would not have versions. But they do (and updates update between well defined sets of packages). Releasing package by package is HELL. Don't do it. It WILL kill your support people. Is it good for testing particular packages ? Yes. Is it good as a release strategy ? No.
Really, that's nonsense and you know it. While (most) linux distributions have versions for major feature jumps they uniformly release interim bug fixes when they're done. Which is what Nokia's not doing.

If Nokia followed the pattern that major Linux distros do, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 

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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2010-01-02 , 00:15
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#207
Originally Posted by aspidites View Post
[rant]
The fact that I have to wait for something that is already presumably working irks me. The fact that I have to wait on improvements on what is allegedly supposed to be open source only because it has to be released with other closed-source components irks me even Software availability (that is, being allowed to use bleeding-edge software as long as I was willing to get my hands dirty) are one of the reasons I switched from Windows to Linux. That this phone in some respects seems to take that liberty from me feels like a regression.

I can't wait until telephony works in Mer.
[/rant]
What's stopping you? The sources are available, build them and install them.

Originally Posted by aspidites View Post
PS- is it ironic that oFono is sponsored by Nokia yet, once consumed by Mer will be Maemo's competition?
Um, what?
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attila77 is offline attila77
2010-01-02 , 00:20
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#208
Originally Posted by aspidites View Post
Slightly misleading. This seems to imply that all Linux distros have version numbers because they can't cope with a rolling release. Arch Linux (which I'm typing this from), Gentoo, and a slew of others seem to handle rolling releases quite well.
Except none of those systems are meant for Linux newbies, nor do they (have to) provide the service level more mainstream distros do. That's also the reason why that slew almost totally excludes anything that needs to provide a reliable, universal, certifiable support level. On the other hand, I fully expect Arch or Gentoo folks to be able to solve any problems they might run into on their own. But then, it's (with a stretch) like running Debian unstable. Yeah, it breaks occasionally, you fix it and carry on. But 'normal people', companies, etc, need a solid spot to base on, and that base is provided exactly on those 'big' releases, which are GUARANTEED to have various certificates, be provided with security fixes, paid support, whatnot.

In fact, I would say that this laptop is more stable than when it was running a Debian flavor of Linux.
Let's not get anecdotal.

Now, if you augmented that statement to say "If this where true, Debian-Based Linux distributions would not have versions" I would be more inclined to agree.(operative word here being more).
It's not just Debian. Releases are an even bigger deal in the RedHat (and derivatives) world, SuSE is also heavily release based, really, all mainstream distros do that (no offense to Gentoo, Arch or any of the more hacker oriented distros - they are just aiming at a different target audience).

I still would argue that they could do like a lot of FOSS projects and have stable vs development/testing releases.
I agree they SHOULD be more transparent in the development efforts (not sure if I would use the word release, a lot of people have difficulty understanding that something NOT meant for the general public is called a release). It would be much better if fixes would be, if nothing else, at least available through git (so it's absolutely clear it's meant for developers and would mean better early feedback from people who KNOW what they are dealing with).
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jakiman is offline jakiman
2010-01-02 , 00:27
Posts: 1,427 | Thanked: 2,077 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Sydney
#209
Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
I would rather have a stable tested firmware released when its ready.... not before because of some arbitrary date..

ctfo people
Even Microsoft Windows release alpha - beta service packs etc.
Same for video card drivers and most open source apps etc.

I would love for Nokia to do the same and release pre-final releases.
Why would you rather wait much longer? Doesn't make sense.
Stable release is never 100% stable anyways.
Is your stable-tested-final-retail-N900 firwamre bug-less? Mine isn't?

If you don't want to apply non-final firmware, then don't. Easy.
But would love for the rest of us who do to have an option at least.
 

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SirTurbo is offline SirTurbo
2010-01-02 , 00:39
Posts: 28 | Thanked: 4 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Germany
#210
Originally Posted by Jack6428 View Post
So far, at the moment, it looks like as if you don't have much interest in us.
Congratz - you´ve discovered Nokia^^

They really "like" to act in that way - and i´m so stupid to buy a bananaphone just again after my E90...

I wouldn´t be surprised if many of the bugs will still be existing when support for N900 ends.

I hoped that that truly new device would be a new beginning... i´m not sure if not to optimistic...
 
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