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2010-01-03
, 22:29
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Posts: 1,540 |
Thanked: 1,045 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
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#62
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Originally Posted by Matan
Not really, cellular components are cheap and small and getting cheaper and smaller all the time. The extra cost of 3G would probably be something like 10% of the total price or less.
We are paying a lot for this cellular in money, weight, design choices. It makes no sense to buy this device to use it as a tablet.
A basic 3G phone (including the screen, keypad, battery, processor, earpiece, casing etc) retails for about 50 euros unlocked, the N900 retails for about 500 euros unlocked. The cost of making the 3G components cannot be a significant factor in the price.
Things like the the costs of the processors would be much more significant, but I haven't heard anyone here calling for a device with a slower processor or a non-GPU version.
As for design choices... well, there's not a huge difference between the N900 and N810 except their physical size. There's not a huge design difference between the iPhone and the iPod Touch either.
This anti-cellular movement is really getting me down. I could just as easily complain about there being an infrared port which most people never use, and I hardly ever use Bluetooth or the memory card slot either. But I'm not going to complain because I recognise that these are important to some people and they don't add any significant problems for me. And the more people that buy this device, the more software support I will receive too.
The problems that people cite with cellular are nothing to do with the technology but entirely to do with the business practices of cellular providers. And that's a regulatory problem, not a technological one.
American phone providers (both cellular and landline) do things that would be totally illegal in many countries. Until that kind of bad behaviour is stopped, they will continue to milk their customers regardless of the technology used.
Last edited by krisse; 2010-01-03 at 22:32.
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2010-01-03
, 22:45
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Posts: 2,869 |
Thanked: 1,784 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Po' Bo'. PA
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#63
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Again it is not an anti-anything post. If any thing the movement would be pro more devices with M5. 
If the premise increases the production and sales of expensive common components then it would result in a lower cost M5 cell phone too.
If the premise increases the production and sales of expensive common components then it would result in a lower cost M5 cell phone too.
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2010-01-03
, 22:48
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Posts: 4,783 |
Thanked: 1,253 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ norway
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#64
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if the radio do not have a big effect on price, explain how the archos5 IT 32GB (same basic cpu, larger screen, same internal storage) comes in at €299,99, while the N900 is somewhere around €599?
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Be warned, posts are often line of thoughts at highway speeds...
Be warned, posts are often line of thoughts at highway speeds...
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2010-01-03
, 23:25
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Posts: 234 |
Thanked: 160 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
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#65
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Originally Posted by Peet
Thing is, for the history of Maemo, they haven't had more than one product out there. The 770 was superseded by the 800 was superseded by the 810 and now has been superseded by the 900.
If the Maemo platform is strategically important to Nokia there's no obstacle to keeping the SIM-less tablet market going for developers and customers alike. The N900's tablet functions are already battle-tested; improving its telephony functions is something Nokia engineers are doing within their secret darkrooms anyway. Yet lot of the internet and media functionality depends on 3rd party developers and generally open-source apps which are being patched up and improved from many different directions. All they need is hardware to run the current Maemo OS.
If Nokia will indeed release tablet(s) in the future then why the long gap and no information whatsoever? Wrt. price and screen size the N900 is hardly the ideal tablet developer attraction, and what hardware features should the developers target on the not-even-rumoured future Nokia tablet? Keyboard? D-pad? etc.
Course, I don't know how this makes them any different than any other cell phone developer.
Being extremely phone-centric has already blindsided Nokia in a major way by the arrival of iphone and later Android and the plethora of ARM-armed touchscreen smartphones. Now they're surrendering the "companion" tablet market (and many developers) voluntarily after pioneering the platform (which, when mature, would help the S40 and Symbian sales!) and after bringing up the tablet usability from 40% to 60% to 80% currently?
BTW, I find it ironic you say this when Nokia IS a cell phone company. If anything, the whole tablet minus cell service is outside the bailiwick of the company, and having it integrated with cell service has been long overdue.
Last edited by TheLongshot; 2010-01-03 at 23:32.
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2010-01-03
, 23:28
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Posts: 234 |
Thanked: 160 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
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#66
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Originally Posted by tso
The N900 also has a hardware keyboard and a 5MP camera.
if the radio do not have a big effect on price, explain how the archos5 IT 32GB (same basic cpu, larger screen, same internal storage) comes in at €299,99, while the N900 is somewhere around €599?
BTW, the price difference isn't as great in the states. Amazon has the Archos5 at $379. When Amazon last had the N900 in stock, it was about $550.
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2010-01-03
, 23:48
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Posts: 1,589 |
Thanked: 720 times |
Joined on Aug 2009
@ Arlington (DFW), Texas
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#67
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All of this ignores a couple points. Apple's iPod Touch sells well mainly because of its marriage to iTunes for media delivery, and games and ebooks from the inappropriately named App Store. The iPod Touch isn't seen as a web tablet at all by most of its users. Most of its users see it as a media player and ebook reader. These new figures mean little in terms of Maemo or tablets, and more to iTunes and its heavy gaming and ebook focus in its App Store.
Nokia has just unveiled Maemo5 to the public about 7 weeks ago. Just because there isn't a SIM-less model now doesn't mean there won't be. Apple didn't debut with the iPod Touch and iPhone simultaneously either. Nokia could've debuted Maemo5 with a SIM-less and phone model, but I doubt it would have translated to much higher sales or better developer support.
The main folks wanting a tablet version are previous NIT owners. I haven't heard complaints from beyond the previous owners. The fact is Maemo without cellular connectivity only appealed to 300,000 to 500,000 consumers. That amount doesnt justify dedicating manufacturing capacity to such a small market, negating the thing that would make it cheap: scale. Without no large scale, there is the same circumstance that keeps Symbian devices from CDMA networks. The small lot would be more expensive to produce.
Don't forget that while Apple sells alot of media players, Nokia sells more. They may sell a large amount of media devices capable of working as a web tablet without a SIM, Nokia sells more. In the sub $300 segment, Nokia's 5800 and its various variants are better sellers globally, comparable to the iPod Touch sales. So if price is the issue, Nokia already has better equipped Symbian touchscreen devices with better browsers, ability to read more ebook and media formats, higher quality cameras, louder speakers, front facing cameras, and more, yet in the same price range. ALL those Nokias can also be used as phones. The only advantage is games, but that is addressable.
I think Nokia should have a SIM slotless model, but not running Maemo5, but Symbian. Maemo is for computing, and the futur of computing is the cloud and web based services, so the always on model is best. A Maemo model without a SIM slot would be cool, too, but it will most likely be a niche device with its target market shared by other cheaper devices in its portfolio. Unless it features a 7"+ display, it will not appeal to many people. That market is waning, and the future is convergence.
Nokia isn't stupid. They are just focused. They really don't care about Maemo or Symbian except in terms of pushing Ovi and Qt. If there is a desire for a cheap alternative, Symbian may fill the void, or we'll have to wait for a SIM slotless model. Nokia is listening, and everyone sees the desire for a tablet focused model. I think it will be still premium priced, possibly with higher end hardware to protect branding.
Nokia has just unveiled Maemo5 to the public about 7 weeks ago. Just because there isn't a SIM-less model now doesn't mean there won't be. Apple didn't debut with the iPod Touch and iPhone simultaneously either. Nokia could've debuted Maemo5 with a SIM-less and phone model, but I doubt it would have translated to much higher sales or better developer support.
The main folks wanting a tablet version are previous NIT owners. I haven't heard complaints from beyond the previous owners. The fact is Maemo without cellular connectivity only appealed to 300,000 to 500,000 consumers. That amount doesnt justify dedicating manufacturing capacity to such a small market, negating the thing that would make it cheap: scale. Without no large scale, there is the same circumstance that keeps Symbian devices from CDMA networks. The small lot would be more expensive to produce.
Don't forget that while Apple sells alot of media players, Nokia sells more. They may sell a large amount of media devices capable of working as a web tablet without a SIM, Nokia sells more. In the sub $300 segment, Nokia's 5800 and its various variants are better sellers globally, comparable to the iPod Touch sales. So if price is the issue, Nokia already has better equipped Symbian touchscreen devices with better browsers, ability to read more ebook and media formats, higher quality cameras, louder speakers, front facing cameras, and more, yet in the same price range. ALL those Nokias can also be used as phones. The only advantage is games, but that is addressable.
I think Nokia should have a SIM slotless model, but not running Maemo5, but Symbian. Maemo is for computing, and the futur of computing is the cloud and web based services, so the always on model is best. A Maemo model without a SIM slot would be cool, too, but it will most likely be a niche device with its target market shared by other cheaper devices in its portfolio. Unless it features a 7"+ display, it will not appeal to many people. That market is waning, and the future is convergence.
Nokia isn't stupid. They are just focused. They really don't care about Maemo or Symbian except in terms of pushing Ovi and Qt. If there is a desire for a cheap alternative, Symbian may fill the void, or we'll have to wait for a SIM slotless model. Nokia is listening, and everyone sees the desire for a tablet focused model. I think it will be still premium priced, possibly with higher end hardware to protect branding.
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"...and the Freaks shall inherit the Earth."
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2010-01-04
, 00:08
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Posts: 4,783 |
Thanked: 1,253 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ norway
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#68
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Originally Posted by TheLongshot
crap, forgot about the camera. But i do not think the keyboard adds much to the cost, as the N810 came out at a price point that was in the same area as the archos 5.
The N900 also has a hardware keyboard and a 5MP camera.
BTW, the price difference isn't as great in the states. Amazon has the Archos5 at $379. When Amazon last had the N900 in stock, it was about $550.
still, €100 for the camera, and €100 for the mobile radios (it does both GSM and UMTS after all)?
__________________
Be warned, posts are often line of thoughts at highway speeds...
Be warned, posts are often line of thoughts at highway speeds...
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2010-01-04
, 00:22
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Posts: 1,540 |
Thanked: 1,045 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
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#69
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Originally Posted by christexaport
That's it exactly, the Maemo tablets and iPod Touch were going after totally different customers. Take away the iTunes users and the general media consumers and Apple doesn't have many customers left. The overlap between the tablets and the iPod Touch must have been very small indeed.
All of this ignores a couple points. Apple's iPod Touch sells well mainly because of its marriage to iTunes for media delivery, and games and ebooks from the inappropriately named App Store. The iPod Touch isn't seen as a web tablet at all by most of its users. Most of its users see it as a media player and ebook reader. These new figures mean little in terms of Maemo or tablets, and more to iTunes and its heavy gaming and ebook focus in its App Store.
The iPod Touch is a media player with restricted web browsing and computing abilities as nice extras. Its focus is on media consumption, that is what most people buy it for. Look at how many of its "apps" are simply interfaces for accessing online media content.
This is what the designer of Canola was saying, if you want a device to succeed it has to be designed with a very specific audience in mind, and that audience has to be large enough to justify the product's development.
A general non-cellular pocket computer is not aimed at a specific mainstream audience, so it was never going to be a viable product for Nokia in the long term. They had to make it more specialised, and they've wisely gone for making it oriented around communications, which is where Nokia's track record is strongest.
Just to put this in perspective:
In its entire history Apple has sold about 230 million iPods. In its entire history Nokia has sold about 2000 million phones, and sells about 300 million more every year. Add in the other manufacturers, and total phones sales are 1000 million every year. Phones are an order of magnitude more widely used than any other gadget, and this idea that it's a stupid market to be in is itself stupid.
Despite all the snobbery, Nokia sells more Symbian smartphones than all iPhones and iPod Touches put together. It's fashionable in some corners to bash Symbian, but Symbian does well because it runs on cheap low-end hardware that ordinary people can actually afford to buy (150 euros unlocked for a touchscreen Symbian vs 300-600 euros unlocked for virtually any other touchscreen smartphone). It's finding a mainstream market and making a product that suits that market.
Part of the problem in these discussion threads is hype being confused with actual sales. Devices can be very popular with the media yet unpopular in the real world, or vice versa, because the media tends to be written by a very unrepresentative sample of the population.
The Amazon Kindle is talked about in hushed tones as some kind of triumph, yet Amazon still won't release any sales figures, with most estimates at something in the region of half a million devices a year, about the same as the original iPod. Well... the original N-Gage sold one million devices in its first year, yet the N-Gage was instantly written off as a total disaster at its launch.
What measure are people using to compare the success and failure of various devices? Userbase? Sales figures? Column inches in newspapers? How cool the device seems?
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2010-01-04
, 00:28
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Posts: 116 |
Thanked: 86 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ New Orleans, LA, USA
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#70
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Originally Posted by go1dfish
Goldfish, you gangster!
The n900 functions perfectly fine without a SIM card I know someone using it in such a manner for everyday use.
Would a separate iPod Touch product be necessary at all were it not for Apple's carrier exclusivity deals and the fact that the iPhone will not operate at all without cellular activitation?
Only problem with that comparison is that the ipod touch is about 150-300$ US, where the N900 is 649$ US. Secondly, the iPhone will function without a sim, just needs to be jailbroken and hacktivated for that. Cheers!
Outside the US an AT&T only iPhone would be useless for her. She would not be exposed to the Apple OS and her life would go on without it. However, because she could buy the iTouch, she is using an Apple product.
Her next device could very well be an all-in-one Maemo cell phone however the decision to buy one would now be based on the size, usability, and flexibility of her current set-up. A steeper hill for Maemo to climb. Kudos, Apple marketing.
The corollary to this would be a current, in contract iPhone user who can not try, and will not be exposed to the Maemo5 OS without buying a new cell phone and committing to a different carier... Fail, Nokia marketing.
GK's post illustrates a missed market for Nokia by only offering Maemo5 on a cell phone device not an increased market by offering only a tablet like device...
Apple offers both, Nokia doesn't... simple azat.
No lunacy here, BTW.
SLN member # 009