As always.. Kathy comes in and phrases things so much better than my conversationally inept brain could ever possibly imagine.

Thank you.

(it's rootsh btw.. rootfs is the root filesystem.. everyone has one of those )

I knew this thread was coming and the arguments read pretty much as I expected. Ultimately this comes down to a couple of issues.

If an option is provided - regardless of whether they know what they are doing people will try it. Go look at the red pill threads and check out how many "What is this?" and "I enabled it and now what do I do" posts. Its all very well saying they SHOULDNT use it - but a good percentage of the population will also push a button marked DO NOT PUSH.
By removing the option Nokia has at least raised the knowledge level required to install debs manually to "Knows what xterm is and command line"+"Needs root access and understands how to get it"+"Has an understanding of dpkg or apt". By doing so the number of people willing to undertake the process is cut drastically and the resultant "I SCREWED UP MY PHONE" threads are directly reduced. If the user REALLY wants to get the app installed then they at least are forced to learn something about the system and the risks involved. Pressing a button and installing is considered by many people "safe"

Now to the argument that "I need red pill because I dont want to open the keyboard" That is IMHO a total cop out. I guarantee I can open an xterm and install an app while you are still waiting for red pill to enable, anyone even remotely proficient with the command line could, if you cant - see above.

Personally I am glad to see red pill gone, anything that cuts down on "HELLLLPPPP MEEE" threads can only be a good thing. Now if they would just implement some sort of proficiency test you have to pass before you can get access to extras-devel I would be a happy man.

Which beautifully demonstrates exactly how much I know about what I'm talking about!!!

(Words are easy - I'm a preacher - code is a different matter!)

And I agree with all your comments 100%.. but what is your solution for people with a broken package manager and no rootsh? I don't like Red Pill mode.. never have... but I do succumb to there being a requirement to install deb files in rare cases.

It's simple, if Nokia includes root out of the box they'll have to deal with a lot of bricked devices by noobish users. So they can't take that responsibility. We as a community can sometimes help the noobs and tell them to install rootsh and what to type in the terminal. But by having everything seeming too easy for them to do with the RPM, they're going to be confident in doing it alone and do even more damage.

The argument with the broken package manager is invalid, because it doesn't solve all problems by having root by default. Sometimes the device is so damaged that one can only ssh in it and then bring it back up with a few comands. So are we going to demand that a ssh server be running all the time and installed by default just because there's a potential benefit if the device gets broken in some very specific and rare case?

Sooo.... ubuntu should remove sudo?

ubuntu is not selling a phone. Canonical is selling support.

It's simple, if Nokia includes root out of the box they'll have to deal with a lot of bricked devices by noobish users.

This has got to be a primary concern for Nokia, I agree. Ultimately, they're delivering to consumers a product that enables them to perform a set of tasks. Certain users will be curious and start poking around. If they stumble onto something inherently hazardous, there's a chance they will shaft something, which amounts to increased support pressure for Nokia. I understand their desire to limit 'privileged' features from a pragmatic business standpoint.

Sooo.... ubuntu should remove sudo?

Nokia's business considerations are radically different from Ubuntu's...there's no legitimate game of tit-for-tat to be played here.

Nokia doesn't offer or sell support?

What's a phone got to do with it?? Newbies use desktops, laptop, tablets, netbooks, phones.. they all have GNU/Linux on them. Maemo is the absolute closest to real GNU/Linux as it gets... but they disable root. Makes no sense.

If nokia wanted to prevent people from getting root.. they would go after the maintainers of the rootsh package and make maemo harder to crack. Nokia doesn't *care* if people have root.. so far as I've seen. It's easy enough to get root, and they aren't putting anything in the way of trying to BLOCK that, so why not just make it default for the rare times one cannot install the right package?

You don't think people will install rootsh, break their device, and still call nokia??? You must be joking..

Nope. They will install rootsh, break their device, and fetch up here screaming for help.


(http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=40234)