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Mandor is offline Mandor
2010-03-01 , 21:42
Posts: 149 | Thanked: 140 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ YUL
#71
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
We can summarize the information available from Nokia and others can help adding the unofficial but technically accurate information or views
I thought there was some sort of agreement here on the necessity of official sources for this to work ?
 
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ewan is offline ewan
2010-03-01 , 21:44
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#72
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
I never said that. My intention starting this thread is to keep a sane discussion leading to somewhere new.
This discussion appears to have led to a fair degree of consensus that what is required is more openness from Nokia. If you want to solve the 'FUD' problem, that's your solution.

Still, not disclosing plans about a released product is a usual practice in the industry. Some people are saying 'I feel abandoned by your silence and I will go get a [conpetitor device]'. Still, do you know more about the [competitor] future plans? Has [competitor] made any official announcement about the future of their products in the market?
Your competitors may not be who you think they are. Speaking for myself, the alternative to getting an N900 with Maemo was not an alternative smartphone, it was a netbook or tablet with a different Linux OS on. There is very, very much more openness around the development plans of the Redhat sponsored Fedora (for example) that there is around Maemo/Meego. If my next upgrade is going to be Nokia hardware, then I'm going to need some more openness about the software that I will be able to run on it, otherwise I'll likely be going back to commodity kit and properly open OSes.

Hypothesis: without Maemo Summit, MeeGo announcement, Bugzilla and Brainstorm, probably the N900 FUD would be minimal at this point, even if the Nokia internals were doing exactly the same work they are doing today.
I really don't think that's the case. you can't say things like this without people expecting some follow-through. You said:
We trust you, and at the end it’s your device. Nokia also trusts the open source community in general and the Maemo community particularly
Keeping a secret internal bugtracker, secret internal source repos, and secret plans doesn't look like the behaviour of someone that trusts us, or understands what 'Software Freedom Lovers' have come to expect.

Do you think this has a point? Nokia is frequently recalled to learn to deal with open development, but maybe users, bloggers etc might learn a thing or two as well.
Such as?

URLs are welcome, specially from commercial competitors.

About 'technical problems', you could consider one the fact that most 'feared' users suffer FUD around "Harmattan", "MeeGo", "Qt", etc when they actually have little idea of the technical implications of all this.
And who's fault do you think that is? Give us some actual information, and then we'll have more of an idea of what you're planning. Sure, you're right that the fear is born of ignorance, but that ignorance is brought about by deliberate secrecy, and there's nothing that anyone other than Nokia can do to fix that.

The lack of technical clarity becomes more than a technical problem at the end.
Quite. So lets have some more clarity.
 

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buurmas is offline buurmas
2010-03-01 , 21:50
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#73
Originally Posted by qole View Post
Honestly, the noise doesn't bother me very much. The whole Internet is one seething mass of noise. That's what search engines are for.
Bless you. But, it's starting to irritate me, for one. Too many threads getting highjacked, too many semi-rational rants, too many misunderstandings, too little constructive dialog. I understand my some want to rant against Nokia, and they have a right. But does it have to be so difficult for anyone in the community who wants to have a constructive conversation? Can people rant without making it such a pain for the rest of us?
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qgil is offline qgil
2010-03-01 , 21:50
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#74
Originally Posted by johnel View Post
For me this is the problem. Nokia just don't seem to communicate with the community (not in a formal sense).
I think Nokia communicates with the community more than the average practice in this industry. Then again 'the community' doesn't mean every Talk thread where someone throws a question to Nokia.


Rather then relying on third-party blogs and quotes to get information we can go to a formal announcement page instead.
That was the intention of http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle and http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Harmattan . I haven't worked much on these pages lately and it's been some months since the automatic lists of resolved bugs are broken.

In the MeeGo context the communication will be easier since OSS / commercial and platform / product will be better separated.

In the meantime, any tips are welcome to improve the communication with the community AND the perception of the communication with the community.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2010-03-01 , 21:57
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#75
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
IIn the meantime, any tips are welcome to improve the communication with the community AND the perception of the communication with the community.
I think a higher degree of engagement with the community council would be a great start.
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ewan is offline ewan
2010-03-01 , 21:59
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#76
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Setting pure OSS expectations on Maemo/N900 ignoring the business aspects Nokia has to deal with (e.g. giving away interesting information to competitors) is probably not a good business.
I think you're wrong. Take the example of Intel's approach to graphics card drivers, for example. As a rule, by the time a new chipset hits retail they have free drivers already published, already in distributions. That may give some information away to their competitors, but it gives confidence to their customers, and that sells more hardware. Nokia are fundamentally in a similar position; the lack of software support and openness in its development is putting people off buying the hardware - you're already seeing that in posts to this forum. It's also putting off 3rd party potential developers (both free and proprietary) because they have no confidence in the future of the platform, and that itself will make the hardware less attractive even to end users that don't care about these things directly.

Fundamentally, you clearly think you've got a 'FUD' problem, otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread. I think you can solve it by, as I said before, allaying people's fears, clearing up the uncertainties, and removing the doubt. You may not want to do that, but if you don't, I think you're going to have to learn to live with the 'FUD', because I don't see any other way of getting rid of it.
 

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Rauha is offline Rauha
2010-03-01 , 22:01
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#77
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
URLs are welcome, specially from commercial competitors.
I kind of feel bad for quoting this sentence, because I agree with most the things in your OP and your answers to follow up posts.

Still, I think asking for quotes from commercial competitors is somewhat besides the point. Nokia, and espesicially Maemo marketing, has made "opennes" and community approach a big, if not the biggest, selling point for Maemo. We don't get TV commercials about games or fart-apps on Maemo, but we do get viral marketing with cybernetic-penguins and open source eveangelism. From your commercial competitors, like Apple or Palm, I don't expect anything beyond usual closed source & commercial communication (i.e need-to-know-basis). I expect more from Nokia's Maemo efforts and that is based mostly on the way Maemo marketing sells Maemo platform.
 

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Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2010-03-01 , 22:01
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#78
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
The lack of technical clarity becomes more than a technical problem at the end.
I would just like the Fremantle bugs fixed, but because Nokia have a known tendency to change OS strategy within months of releasing a new OS and not considering device backward compatibility (why would they - they only want to sell hardware) the bugs in the now "old" (yet still current) OS never get the care and attention they need in order to be fixed.

This is understandable, as there are limited resources to fix these legacy issues, but it would be more acceptable if there was any possibility of obtaining the new OS that may contain fixes for the bugs I and others have identified or been affected by.

In short, I don't want Maemo6/Harmattan on the N900 for any other reason than I predict most bugs raised against Fremantle will just end up WONTFIX, or "Fixed in Maemo6/Harmattan", which is essentially the same thing to an N900 owner right now.

The reduced activity in b.m.o over the last couple of months is fairly obvious, why that is though I'm not sure - I'd like think it's everyone beavering away on Fremantle bugs but somehow I doubt it.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2010-03-01 , 22:05
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#79
Originally Posted by ewan View Post
I think you're wrong. Take the example of Intel's approach to graphics card drivers, for example. As a rule, by the time a new chipset hits retail they have free drivers already published, already in distributions. That may give some information away to their competitors, but it gives confidence to their customers, and that sells more hardware.
Different class of customers though! You can't directly compare graphics cards with end products like mobile computers. Upstream commercial customers might well reward a more open company-- consumers really don't care in general. iPhone success proves it.
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daperl is offline daperl
2010-03-01 , 22:06
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#80
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
In the meantime, any tips are welcome to improve the communication with the community AND the perception of the communication with the community.
Texrat has a slide. I've seen it: We're all partying in a martini glass or something. Lightning strikes, and then Texrat's wearing a cape I think.
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