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mrojas is offline mrojas
2010-03-05 , 04:28
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#261
Originally Posted by azorni View Post
Indeed, but here we're talking about price.

Effort and work is not always rationally convertible into price. You might regret it, but its economical reality.
Sorry but... LOL

Economics 101: Everything costs something, even if you are not the one paying it.
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jakiman is offline jakiman
2010-03-05 , 04:34
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#262
Yes. Nothing in life is free. To pirate electronic media, you need internet access. That isn't free either.

I guess you didn't see my other side of the point I was trying to make. Piracy increases recognition of a song / movie / person / program beyond sales. It's a marketing dream. Free distribution to make even 5-10 year olds who don't have a job nor money to be able to listen to songs and watch movies.

I didn't cover all grounds so yes, you are right that many also get burnt badly by it. What I meant by celebrities are the BIG ones. The "rich enough" category. Not the underground or indie bands.

If you want fame, piracy actually helps. If you want money, probably not. But fame can bring you money. Not by the product you sell. But by the fame alone. Again, I guess I'm talking about the BIG guns here. Who benefits from fame alone. (advertising etc)

I'm not pro about piracy. Just trying to show some othersides which people don't see or ignore. If I offended you, I apologise. You can never cover all sides in such a short post.
 
azorni is offline azorni
2010-03-05 , 04:36
Posts: 16 | Thanked: 1 time | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Paris, France
#263
Originally Posted by mrojas View Post
Sorry but... LOL

Economics 101: Everything costs something, even if you are not the one paying it.
You just don't get it, do you ?

When you created something, indeed you paid with your efforts, reflexion or time passed improving your artistic skills.

But once you've finished, what you have done can be given and duplicated with no additional cost. Therefore it can not be sold, and what you paid can not be turned into price, from any commercial and monetary point of view.
Last edited by azorni; 2010-03-05 at 04:46.
 
azorni is offline azorni
2010-03-05 , 04:39
Posts: 16 | Thanked: 1 time | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Paris, France
#264
Originally Posted by jakiman View Post
Yes. Nothing in life is free. To pirate electronic media, you need internet access. That isn't free either.
It is not free indeed, and as mentioned earlier, it's the pirate who pays this, not the initial publisher. Therefore it's pirate's business, and it shouldn't be invoked by publisher to justify its price.
 
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2010-03-05 , 04:52
Posts: 733 | Thanked: 991 times | Joined on Dec 2008
#265
Originally Posted by azorni View Post
You just don't get it, do you ?


When you created something, indeed you paid with your efforts, reflexion or time passed improving your artistic skills.
OK

But once you've finished, what you have done can be given and duplicated with no additional cost. Therefore it can not be sold, and what you paid can not be turned into price, from a commercial and monetary point of view.
For starters, unless you somehow find the way to magically create matter from the void, then there is a cost, there is always a cost. The cost of the storage involved in the media, the cost of distributing it (even if it is electronically), etc There is always a cost, even if it is too small to notice at first glance.

Then, and here it is the part that is hard for you to understand (that, or either you are rationalizing theft... which wouldn't surprise me either, people rarely admit they are doing something wrong, even while committing the most heinous crimes ever), there is a cost directly related to the loss of income for the value creator.

It can be said that piracy operates in a void: its the way that people that would never pay for content anyway, gets their content. So there is people that rationalize it thinking there is no problem, because the pirates wouldn't buy it anyway.

However, often people do not buy, not because they are evil, but because what they want it is not priced accordingly.
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2010-03-05 , 04:53
Posts: 4,384 | Thanked: 5,524 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
#266
Originally Posted by jakiman View Post
I guess you didn't see my other side of the point I was trying to make. Piracy increases recognition of a song / movie / person / program beyond sales. It's a marketing dream. Free distribution to make even 5-10 year olds who don't have a job nor money to be able to listen to songs and watch movies.
Generally you try not to distribute the end products for free during marketing.
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azorni is offline azorni
2010-03-05 , 05:05
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#267
Originally Posted by mrojas View Post
For starters, unless you somehow find the way to magically create matter from the void, then there is a cost, there is always a cost. The cost of the storage involved in the media, the cost of distributing it (even if it is electronically), etc There is always a cost, even if it is too small to notice at first glance.
Well, it's funny you're talking about « creating matter from void », since we are precisely talking about non material property (intellectual products).

And indeed, there are some material costs, related to storage and data transmission for instance, but once again, those costs are not supported by the initial publisher of intellectual products, but by the pirate himself or by the end user. That's why the cost can not be converted into price. Or more precisely, this price tend to get close to zero as soon as someone decide not to sell the object, but to give it.

Then, and here it is the part that is hard for you to understand (that, or either you are rationalizing theft... which wouldn't surprise me either, people rarely admit they are doing something wrong, even while committing the most heinous crimes ever), there is a cost directly related to the loss of income for the value creator.
The loss of income does exist only if you assume that this income should exist. This is absurd circular reasoning.

Loss of income is a fact due to a change in economic environment. It is just the same that what append for copyists after Gutenberg. You might regret it, but you can't avoid it.
Last edited by azorni; 2010-03-05 at 05:09.
 
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2010-03-05 , 05:18
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#268
What's all this material and marginal costs gotta do with the item value anyway?

As long as someone thinks they can get enjoyment or benefit from your service or product, then it's worth something to them and worth paying for.
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jakiman is offline jakiman
2010-03-05 , 05:27
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#269
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
Generally you try not to distribute the end products for free during marketing.
Generally, yes. But if I was a new singer, I would be giving away my CDs or songs off the internet for free to as many as I could in hope that they listen to it and give me feedback or just gain some recognition. Once I have some people's attention, then I would think about selling my other stuff to them or maybe they are just willing to pay to support me.

I've been around the internet long enough to realise that people are willing to pay as long as they feel it's worth it. If it's good, they will pay you even if they got it for free initially. It definitely has improved over the years imo.

Right now, I can go to a fully legit major online music store, and pay for a mp3 file and download it with no DRM. This is the kind of service which will tone down piracy. Make it as simple even for the actual buyers.
 
azorni is offline azorni
2010-03-05 , 05:28
Posts: 16 | Thanked: 1 time | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Paris, France
#270
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
What's all this material and marginal costs gotta do with the item value anyway?

As long as someone thinks they can get enjoyment or benefit from your service or product, then it's worth something to them and worth paying for.
Sure.

As far as I'm concerned, many times I've paid for some intellectual product.

But for the same reason that someone might think that something has some value that worths paying for, he might also consider that this thing deserves to be known and owned by others.

That's where zero marginal cost intervenes.

Since it doesn't cost anything to duplicate and distribute what he's just bought, he might very well decide to just do it, for free.

Marginal cost is something that tend to influence price in time. This is dynamic process. Eventually, the price of a zero marginal cost product tends to zero.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value for a product. It always depend from local situation and global economic environnement.

This is what marginalism has illustrated with the water and diamond paradox.

A man in a desert would give any diamond for a glass of water. But he wouldn't give that much for a second one, even less for a third, and so on.

Pricing is a complex and dynamical process. This should not be ignored.
Last edited by azorni; 2010-03-05 at 05:44.
 
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