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2010-03-22
, 01:07
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Posts: 1,309 |
Thanked: 1,187 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
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#132
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side note: as a man of too many words, just because i do not answer every point you (plurum) make, it doesn't mean i don't take them to heart. the best and/or most obvious arguments do not always need a response...
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2010-03-22
, 01:34
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#133
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volt, you talk about perceptions, and you're right: at first glance this place can appear hostile to newcomers.
But perceptions go both ways. For instance your refusal to even consider bridging your accounts can be seen as you choosing to be part of the problem rather than part of any solution(s).
I don't really want to take this any further because we've done it many times before and hit the same argumentive wall every time. What I ask is that everyone here give each other the benefit of the doubt upfront, and only withdraw that when it turns out to be wantonly undeserved. I think the latter is a very small exception here.
But perceptions go both ways. For instance your refusal to even consider bridging your accounts can be seen as you choosing to be part of the problem rather than part of any solution(s).
I don't really want to take this any further because we've done it many times before and hit the same argumentive wall every time. What I ask is that everyone here give each other the benefit of the doubt upfront, and only withdraw that when it turns out to be wantonly undeserved. I think the latter is a very small exception here.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-03-22
, 01:44
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Posts: 1,309 |
Thanked: 1,187 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
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#134
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It's just that in my own weird way, I consider signing up/joining up to be part of the problem. Sure, it would gain me this karma I have been envying, but it would be me stepping over the gap in the bridge instead of rubbing the engineers face in it and making him make a better effort. Once I step over, he'll just shrug and say, you got over, didn't you?
and how would that satisfy my stubbornness?
* It was pointing out flaws in web user interfaces that got me my current job some six years ago, and I make my earnings by always trying to find better ways. As a web developer with focus on usability, I am often ashamed on behalf of service providers that focus on technical sides of issues... I don't argue to be difficult... I think.
Last edited by volt; 2010-03-22 at 01:51.
and how would that satisfy my stubbornness?
* It was pointing out flaws in web user interfaces that got me my current job some six years ago, and I make my earnings by always trying to find better ways. As a web developer with focus on usability, I am often ashamed on behalf of service providers that focus on technical sides of issues... I don't argue to be difficult... I think.
Last edited by volt; 2010-03-22 at 01:51.
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2010-03-22
, 01:45
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#135
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My point was about voting, not karma. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-03-22
, 01:52
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Posts: 2,869 |
Thanked: 1,784 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Po' Bo'. PA
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#136
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Originally Posted by Jaffa
Wow!... and you talk about straw man arguments.
So, as a council member, you'd push to have talk.maemo.org taken away from Reggie?
I would hope that Council would want Reggie to be the administrator of these forums. I don't even know if the council has the power to appoint an administrator. For all I know Reggie has an equitable interest negotiated with Nokia.
What I would push for is that Reggie or whoever did administrate and manage these forums, would be able to do their job on a day to day basis without being influenced by the Council. Worse than that would be if the council believed that because they were elected, this some how gave them the... (and I'm reusing your last straw man here Jaffa) "Magical Properties" to be an effective forum moderator.
The best forums that I have belonged to are the ones that are produced and maintained by the people who use them as their primary source of information on the subject. Members who find useful information will post that information. Just as we see now in the developing Sygic threads. Other members will collect specific information from a general thread and open a new thread for only that information. Forum users will do this naturally regardless of the forums subject in order to make the forums easier for them to use. Since we are all there pretty much for the same reason, the forums then become easier for all to use.
This is why I proposed that forum administration and moderation be separated from the council’s duties. I believe that when we stop trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole, active forum members will allow the forums to evolve into a more useful place for all. As a bonus, in my blue sky world I believe more independent developers will be produced from the forum side of the house as forum members learn more about their devices from within an environment that is more “natural” to them.
A new member recently posted...
Originally Posted by GaryHT627
If a new member "senses" this... we got problems, Bubba. As a new comer here I have sensed a culture clash. It seems the history of Maemo was largely a hangout for those well skilled in Linux and there was an assumption of what was understood and more importantly how the “community” worked. Now with the N900 there is the introduction of those, like me, who are not experts at Linux and do not have a long history of working in the “community” environment. Things like voting for what bugs to fix first, are totally foreign concepts. And yes, there will be some questions that make your eyes roll to the back of your head because many of us lack the skills you have. As this will likely get worse over time as more devices are introduced and the customer base grows...
Having been a member of iTT before maemo.org's "acquisition" of the forums. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I doubt a new member would have "sensed" a culture clash back then.
From what I remember most of us were in awe and extremely grateful to the maemo.org members like sebastian.linux, TA-t3, qwerty12, and fanoush who would take the time to help us and most still do.
What happened since then?
Last edited by YoDude; 2010-03-22 at 01:58.
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2010-03-22
, 01:53
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Posts: 1,309 |
Thanked: 1,187 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
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#137
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Yeah, but it's the karma that is the better motivation to change my login ways. I know what happens to Earl when he doesnt feed his karma.
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2010-03-22
, 01:53
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Posts: 968 |
Thanked: 974 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
@ Ohio
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#138
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Jaffa, thank you, you helped validate several of my points while completely missing them.
As I suggested, the likely first stop for a new user is the forum. How many of those 9 are/were just as active on IRC/mailing lists before getting on the council? If 9 of 11 members started in the forum, why was it decided that the only offical place to nominate/accept was a mailing list?
Thank you to all those people involved in that effort. But why wasn't the same effort put forth for the first 2 elections?
Yes, it's hard to get people to do things. If you recall, I posted a thead on how to sign up to vote (it was even stickied for a while) because I thought it was a fairly difficult process to figure out. I had hoped for a better turnout.
I'd argue that's no the case so much anymore.
All those people are part of the community. Bob is part of the community of Maemo the moment he buys a N900. Whether or not they feel they are part of the community is a different issue. We need to be ready to make them feel like they belong if and when they choose to get more involved.
YoDude is trying to get a handle on a subset of the commuity. Those involved enough to have enough karma to vote if they wanted to. It's a hard task, difficult to quantify, but worthwhile to him anyway. If he's willing to attempt it, it shows me is committed to representing the whole community as best he can.
Originally Posted by Jaffa
This was discussed ad nauseum at the time. In fact several suggestions from that time have been / are being worked on. I was on the side opposite you, and I offered a suggestion on how to improve communication, perhaps not the best idea, others offered ideas as well. I was merely refuting your statement that nobody from the opposing side offered suggestions.
That's a mechanism for communication, so did you believe the right things were communicated, just not in the most visible way
Out of the 11 people who have been on the council, 9 either started in the forums or have been very active here over the entire course of their involvement. The implication that the "community members who were primarily involved in the forum" were somehow ignored, forgotten about or purposely sidelined is particularly grating.
Some of us have gone to great lengths, and great effort, to ensure that - in the last election in particular - everyone on the forum who was eligible to vote on their forum activity alone received explicit instructions on how to ensure they were eligible to vote, and why it was important.
303 people voted in the last election. The theory that there is a vast pool of enfranchised people on the fora, waiting for the opportunity to make their voice heard doesn't seem to be reality. Getting involvement or traction on any particular topic proves difficult, whether it's bug days; testing marathons; community outreach or input on what colour to paint the bikeshed - and this isn't just on talk.maemo.org.
I argue that real end-users don't regularly (or, in the vast majority of cases, ever) post to Internet forums. What we have here, and elsewhere on maemo.org, are enthusiasts and power-users.
<sigh />
I said trying to count the exact number of people in the Maemo community was somewhat wasted effort. ...
Let's do a thought experiment. We have a consumer, Bob, who's just bought an N900 after some pretty adverts he saw all over the printed media in London. At what point does he become "part" of the Maemo community: ...
and that's what the definition of the community really is: if you think you're part of it, you are. And that's why it's difficult to count.
YoDude is trying to get a handle on a subset of the commuity. Those involved enough to have enough karma to vote if they wanted to. It's a hard task, difficult to quantify, but worthwhile to him anyway. If he's willing to attempt it, it shows me is committed to representing the whole community as best he can.
__________________
*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
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2010-03-22
, 01:59
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Posts: 5,335 |
Thanked: 8,187 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ Pennsylvania, USA
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#139
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Originally Posted by YoDude
Are you saying that forum administration and moderation have been part of the council's duties?
This is why I proposed that forum administration and moderation be separated from the council’s duties.
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maemo.org profile
maemo.org profile
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2010-03-22
, 02:05
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#140
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
This is not to denigrate or diminish YoDude's admirable stance, but I daresay every single candidate has this as a goal, just with individual ideas on how that's best tackled.
JYoDude is trying to get a handle on a subset of the commuity. Those involved enough to have enough karma to vote if they wanted to. It's a hard task, difficult to quantify, but worthwhile to him anyway. If he's willing to attempt it, it shows me is committed to representing the whole community as best he can.
And that's exactly what I want to see on any council: common goal, diversity of ideas and experiences but tempered by mutual respect. That isn't illustrated by talking; it's made obvious by history of actions.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
| The Following User Says Thank You to Texrat For This Useful Post: | ||
i hope i am not coming off as too agressive here, i know it can be hard to tell anger from involvement on here
Yes, bugboards have signons. Not every bugboard requires a unique signon different from the rest of the environment, though. And the fact that bugboards require this login, did you consider the concequences? The concequences are that fewer bugs are recorded, isolated, tested, fixed. More traffic go through first line telephone support. More users are frustrated at lousy support. FAQs don't get filled in, information are not on the internet for end users to find themselves.
Yes, all bugzilla installations require logins. But pointing out that only points out a lack of ability to focus on the users.
Anyway, as I am sure you will soon need three or four more meego accounts to link together, the point is not that you need an account to register a bug, is it? The point is that technical solutions limit the users more than they really need to. And that means less valuable to the world.