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ragnar is offline ragnar
2007-07-08 , 22:12
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#201
Originally Posted by fpp View Post
But this is just the infrastructure, the foundation. Something users take for granted, however hard it may have been to create. They also mostly take for granted that any pocketable, computer-like device will carry PIM software, and no amount of repeating the "it's not a PDA" mantra will change that.

Ever since the 1990's, pocketable devices like the Psions and Palms and others have had PIM software.

Heck, Psion in 1997 with the Series5 was also "creating a new category of products for the mainstream public and doing it in a pioneering way". They wrote their own 32-bit OS, EPOC32 (which later became Symbian). And they did it alone. And it could edit Word docs and Excel sheets and had an agenda that could sync with Outlook. And yes, it also had a browser and email software :-)

Sharp did the same with Linux some years ago on the Zaurus line, so it's not like it's out of reach.

From the outside it certainly seems like the right nudge at the right time from Nokia could have turned either of these projects from prototype hacks to usable tools for the end user - especially the stupid one who doesn't understand that he *doesn't* need PIM software :-)
There are many sides to this issue, naturally. Resources are never infinite. Suppose you want to create a new type of device. Do you start the work by providing new features (great browsing) or existing features... Then again, most people that use PIM already have their PIM devices and PIM ecosystem ready. Implementing PIM functionality properly definitely is not a trivial issue.

However, If I can play the devil's advocate here, the _one_ question I would really like to ask from you is:

If PIM is really such a great feature, then why didn't Psions or Sharp Zauruses or any number of PDA devices in the last 10 or so years, any of those that provided the features you were talking about, then become wildly successful?
 
Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2007-07-08 , 22:32
Posts: 3,401 | Thanked: 1,255 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ London, UK
#202
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
However, If I can play the devil's advocate here, the _one_ question I would really like to ask from you is:

If PIM is really such a great feature, then why didn't Psions or Sharp Zauruses or any number of PDA devices in the last 10 or so years, any of those that provided the features you were talking about, then become wildly successful?
Psions were wildly successful and this recent article should help clear up why they ultimately failed (mainly due to poor management who lacked the nerve to innovate, among other reasons including the sale of some operating system software to Nokia...)

As far as PIM is concerned, I can understand to an extent why Nokia don't want to provide it (is it because it competes with the E-series phones?) but if PIM is a barrier to customers buying the Internet Tablet, doesn't it become a pointless debate? Shouldn't Nokia be offering customers what they want rather than telling customers how it should be?

(Lack of) PIM is always mentioned in reviews of Nokia Internet Tablets, and it's a question that never fails to be asked when I show my tablet to other people - their reaction when I say there is no supported PIM/sync functionality is never positive, and generally they rapidly lose interest because they already have a PIM device and don't see the need to carry yet another device in addition to their PIM.

Look at Palm with the Foleo, as they seem to "get it". While I don't necessarily agree with the form factor of this device (too big) I have to admit that it offers compelling functionality that could also be offered on the Internet Tablets.

In a few years instead of asking why did Psion fail, maybe we will be asking why did Nokia (Internet Tablets) fail... and I hope the answer isn't "because they didn't offer PIM".
Last edited by Milhouse; 2007-07-08 at 22:35.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2007-07-09 , 04:01
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#203
Yeah, we can't blame a good device for its failure. The majority of the time, poor execution, especially not properly gaging and responding to user demand, is to blame for such fiascos. History is replete with examples.

There is no awesome product or advent that piss-poor management can't destroy.

EDIT: generalizations aside, I'll back the local consensus opinion. Even if Nokia itself does not offer PIM functionality, the proper API hooks need to be there. And if nothing else, as a hardcore user I want to be able to sync my contacts. I don't care what semantics are employed to dismiss that as not in the tablet's scope, people want it. They want to be able to sync with Outlook or their phones or any other service and manage ONE set of contacts that all devices share. We're sensible that way. And we're lazy. We're efficient to a fault. PCs and smartphones have spoiled us on the concept and we don't understand why another communications device, regardless of its raisson d'etre, doesn't offer that basic functionality. We want to email and Skype people in our Outlook contacts from our tablet if that's what we have with us. Better yet, we want an online service like Google or Yahoo to manage our contacts and the tablet to take advantage of it.

We don't care that this is an N-series device. This is what we want.

I know from sad experience that there are some very rank assumptions made within the walls of Nokia, ones that have little bearing with the reality I experience. One of my favorites: "Nokia phones don't sell well in the US because Americans don't like them". Rubbish. There are other factors, and it behooves us to perform root cause analysis, construct MEANINGFUL, well-designed, scientific polls and find exactly what they are.

No more assumptions. No more excuses. No more disconnects between the company and its customers. And no, in saying that I am NOT pointing fingers at the hardworking tablet developers. They're doing what they've been instructed to do.
Last edited by Texrat; 2007-07-09 at 08:40.
 
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aflegg is offline aflegg
2007-07-09 , 10:00
Posts: 1,463 | Thanked: 81 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ UK
#204
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Then again, most people that use PIM already have their PIM devices and PIM ecosystem ready. Implementing PIM functionality properly definitely is not a trivial issue.
Indeed, and as Milhouse explains there are some counter-arguments here. However, to play Devil's Advocate myself:

Why did Nokia do the Internet Tablet? Lots of mobile phones and PDAs have Web and email access on the move (most of them have better email than the IT OS devices). "Most people that use Internet on the move already have their portable Internet devices and ecosystem already." Can you see the logical fallacy of your argument?

I used to be a heavy PIM user on my Psion (and never used the sync!), but I'm not going to carry around a Revo to act as a diary *and* an N800 to access the web.

Arguably, I'd probably use the Revo more and fall back to my phone or EPOC Web/Opera for web access. So now I'm PIMless.
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qgil is offline qgil
2007-07-09 , 11:13
Posts: 3,105 | Thanked: 11,088 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)
#205
- Open source SIP client: I have asked around and yes there will be SIP functionality based on open source components at some point. More info probably to come as soon as some of the people involved come back from holidays. In any case there are not many secrets about this if you follow the Telepathy development upstream.

- PIM. While SIP means one and only one thing to everybody knowing about SIP, we can't tell the same about PIM. This is not a question we are avoiding, not even publicly: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/339 . My request when I wrote that was to leave the "PIM" word behind and move into feature descriptions. I believe one day the tablets will accomplish most of the wished features (that fit in our strategy and understanding of where are the trends going). I also believe that we won't be blocking anyone to develop PIM functionality at their own taste and urgencies. You can wait us or you can push us following the process and being accurate about the functionality you really want.

- Please forget that thing about the tablet not having feature X, Y, Z not to compete with other Nokia products. It doesn't play any role, specially not in the PIM topic. It is not difficult to see how Nokia is launching products that compete with other Nokia products, it is a way to have a rich portfolio and keep being in the top.

- The PIM/sync equation nowadays on top of maemo (say Linux + GNOME + Nokia tablet) is not simple, no matter how you look at it. First you have many platform components to be synchronized, then you have a mixture of open and closed protocols and formats to support officially if you want to make end users happy, and on top of this you have some significant UI challenges. Sure, it can be done and very probably someone will do it (perhaps Nokia). But it's not simple, and perhaps slightly more complex than few years ago - specially if you want to design a good solution for the forthcoming years.

And 2 comments to Milhouse aside, totally personal:

1. "(Lack of) PIM is always mentioned in reviews of Nokia Internet Tablets". As a journalist my only conclusion of this is that many users of PIM software get curious about the tablets and write reviews about them. I don't think they are representative, no matter how much and how loud they insist about this. This is why I personally prefer to concentrate in feature requests, not buying the whole suite (but I don't decide about this topic in Nokia).

2. "Look at Palm with the Foleo, as they seem to "get it"." Well, if Palm doesn't "get" the PIM story, who will? Of course they look at their strengths and they push the PIM.

Oh, and also...

texrat: "Nokia phones don't sell well in the US because Americans don't like them". Have you *really* heard this within the walls of Nokia? I'm getting really curious about who you are and where do you work. The walls of my team and the whole Multimedia unit provide more intelligent arguments than this.

texrat: "No more assumptions. No more excuses. No more disconnects between the company and its customers." All these are bold assumptions themselves. You say you work at Nokia and you seem to know my team. Can you please provide examples of assumptions, excuses, disconnects - and how you would address them better? Since my identity is public it is easy for you to contact me in the way that suits you best. Your complaints are done at a community level, but you know or you could know all the internal facts. It is great to see that you have apparently clear and straight answers to all the issues. Please share the details, because as I see the picture inside/outside things are simply not as simple. Even if they are doable.
 
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fpp is offline fpp
2007-07-09 , 11:48
Posts: 2,853 | Thanked: 968 times | Joined on Nov 2005
#206
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
However, If I can play the devil's advocate here, the _one_ question I would really like to ask from you is:
If PIM is really such a great feature, then why didn't Psions or Sharp Zauruses or any number of PDA devices in the last 10 or so years, any of those that provided the features you were talking about, then become wildly successful?
Thanks for asking such an easy one :-)
Others have already answered most of it, but as it is asked from me here's my take :
As Mil said, Psion PDAs (series 3 and 5) actually were wildly successful, especially here in Europe, despite being very expensive. They still have a rabid fan base today, that will not use anything else. The Zaurus line, despite its age, is still very popular in Japan ; Sharp just couldn't be bothered to market it anywhere else. And Palm, of course, was top gun for a long time in its day.
The real sense of your question, I guess, and a very relevant one, is "where are PDAs today" ? My opinion is that PDA have faltered as a market because they were very specialized devices - they mostly did one thing right, the PIM part. Multimedia was so-so, Net access too, etc.
But that doesn't mean PIM functions have suddenly become irrelevant, just that users want devices that do many things. The dominant PIM devices today are smartphones, who also do music, video, GPS nav and of course voice.
See what I'm getting to ? ITs are all the rage now, but if they stick to their "I'm just an IT" motto, they could end up where the PDAs are now, soon enough, when more multi-purpose devices catch up...
Last edited by fpp; 2007-07-09 at 17:43.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2007-07-09 , 14:17
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#207
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
texrat: "Nokia phones don't sell well in the US because Americans don't like them". Have you *really* heard this within the walls of Nokia? I'm getting really curious about who you are and where do you work. The walls of my team and the whole Multimedia unit provide more intelligent arguments than this.

texrat: "No more assumptions. No more excuses. No more disconnects between the company and its customers." All these are bold assumptions themselves. You say you work at Nokia and you seem to know my team. Can you please provide examples of assumptions, excuses, disconnects - and how you would address them better? Since my identity is public it is easy for you to contact me in the way that suits you best. Your complaints are done at a community level, but you know or you could know all the internal facts. It is great to see that you have apparently clear and straight answers to all the issues. Please share the details, because as I see the picture inside/outside things are simply not as simple. Even if they are doable.
I'll readily say I once worked for the Fort Worth production facility. While there I heard so many crazy things about what people did or did not want that had little or no bearing in reality. How did I know? I asked people. For instance, I heard many broad assumptins about what the youth market wanted that didn't sound right to me. So I conducted a survey of a computer gaming community, comprised mainly of 12 to 20 year olds. I got some very good feedback of what they wanted from a phone, and why they were choosing Motorola, Samsung and LG. I passed this information on to the proper channels, but I noted later in official communications that it wasn't considered seriously (one was our naming conventions-- management does not appear to understand the value young people place on silly phone names like RAZR, and how they sneer at our number schemes).

The same holds true for the internet tablets. One example of what I'm referring to can be found in bugzilla comments from Nokia. I can't provide a specific offhand but as I recall or rediscover one I will bring it up. Same for examples other than those in bugzilla.

As for my bold assumptions: you are correct. I was simplifying there for effect. Please note that I'm not meaning to slam Nokia; I love the company. But some Nokia execs appear reluctant to process negative feedback and it's something they need to do. There is a mounting frustration among the tablet users and occasional feelings of abandonment... and even if those feelings are more perception than reality, perception creates reality. One reality is that the reverse logistics process was horrible (that is not an exaggeration) and angered many, many people here. That is certainly not your fault, or mine-- but it is Nokia's. When people refer to Nokia (and that includes me) that address is not limited to any certain group; I get the feeling you sometimes think it means you. It's an address looking for an identifier, so if the shoe fits fine, if not, then it's not meant for that reader.

I also know that fulfilling some of the most desired requests is not that simple. I understand that there are priorities. But when I see this community's priorities not matching up with the company's I have to wonder if the proper pulse-taking and communications are taking place, and if both "sides" have the proper information to realize that either Feature X is just not feasible at this time or that Nokia needs to shift course to match the needs/wants of the customer base it wants to cultivate, maintain and expand. New and potential users will base decisions on whether or not to buy a tablets based on what they skim here. Believe it-- we've seen it.

People love the tablet. Ironically, it's a victim of its own success. Since it can do nearly anything, people want it to. That's a dilemma for Nokia, I realize. Personally I think your staff should be easily doubled-- but I'm aware you may not have 100% say over that.

Once again, I appreciate your recent efforts and I apologize for my lengthy posts. There is a lot to say. Speaking of which, are you aware you have PMs blocked?
 
Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2007-07-09 , 14:35
Posts: 3,401 | Thanked: 1,255 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ London, UK
#208
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
1. "(Lack of) PIM is always mentioned in reviews of Nokia Internet Tablets". As a journalist my only conclusion of this is that many users of PIM software get curious about the tablets and write reviews about them. I don't think they are representative, no matter how much and how loud they insist about this. This is why I personally prefer to concentrate in feature requests, not buying the whole suite (but I don't decide about this topic in Nokia).
"It has no PIM or sync capability" is a black/negative mark that is pretty common to all N800s reviews... adding PIM would be another tick in the box for the N800, but whether that is a good enough reason alone for adding PIM I don't know. I'd sure like PIM/sync functionality, and I suspect many others would too. Whether it can be delivered purely by the open source community, I don't know - integration with the OS would be nice.

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
2. "Look at Palm with the Foleo, as they seem to "get it"." Well, if Palm doesn't "get" the PIM story, who will? Of course they look at their strengths and they push the PIM.
What I mean here is that Palm "get it" because the Foleo is a "companion" to the mobile phone, which is a function I can very easily see the N800 performing by syncing up with S60 and other Symbian (and even Windows?) mobile phones etc. Why do I need two contact lists, one on my N800 and one on my Phone? Why not allow me to edit/view/search my contacts on my N800 but have them synced with the phone so all the details are available to me on the phone if/when I need to dial using only the phone? etc. etc.

The N800 as a "companion" probably can't be achieved without buy-in from Nokia as it cuts across several platforms, but the overall functionality could be quite compelling.
 
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fpp is offline fpp
2007-07-09 , 15:24
Posts: 2,853 | Thanked: 968 times | Joined on Nov 2005
#209
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
- Open source SIP client: I have asked around and yes there will be SIP functionality based on open source components at some point. More info probably to come as soon as some of the people involved come back from holidays. In any case there are not many secrets about this if you follow the Telepathy development upstream.
Qim, thanks for inquiring and answering about this. The way I see it, the problem lies in the "at some point" part. Almost ever since I've had my 770 (dec. 2005), there have been tantalizing (if sometimes obscure) hints now and then about some new step being taken towards that goal, generally mentioning Telepathy. And no, I don't follow its "development upstream" : all I see is that 19 months later there is still nothing that a normal user can install and use, and no commitment beyond "at some point". Meanwhile, we have seen several versions of Gizmo (which works on the 770, within its own proprietary limitations), and now Skype (which doesn't).
- PIM. While SIP means one and only one thing to everybody knowing about SIP, we can't tell the same about PIM. This is not a question we are avoiding, not even publicly: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/339 . My request when I wrote that was to leave the "PIM" word behind and move into feature descriptions. I believe one day the tablets will accomplish most of the wished features (that fit in our strategy and understanding of where are the trends going). I also believe that we won't be blocking anyone to develop PIM functionality at their own taste and urgencies. You can wait us or you can push us following the process and being accurate about the functionality you really want.
As Texrat said, it is not a matter of thinking "black or white" here. Between having *NO* PIM functionality whatsoever (and trying to pretend that it doesn't matter :-), and trying to be all things to all people, there probably is a reasonable middle ground that would actually help reviews, reputation and sales, at an acceptable cost.
In local forums over here I have seen countless times questions such as "Can I open/edit my Word docs with this strange new thing ? My Excel sheets ?"... When the community answer is "No", most of the time people shrug and move on, even if this is not their #1 use case for a mobile device, because in their mind the IT moves from the "serious" to "toy" category. Nokia loses a sale, and they lose the opportunity to find out what innovative things the IT is *really* good for.
Again, compatibility with Word/Excel files (and OpenDocument, this being 2007!) could be achieved with properly packaged Abiword and Gnumeric maemo versions, in the proclaimed spirit of the tablets.
- The PIM/sync equation nowadays on top of maemo (say Linux + GNOME + Nokia tablet) is not simple, no matter how you look at it. First you have many platform components to be synchronized, then you have a mixture of open and closed protocols and formats to support officially if you want to make end users happy, and on top of this you have some significant UI challenges. Sure, it can be done and very probably someone will do it (perhaps Nokia). But it's not simple, and perhaps slightly more complex than few years ago - specially if you want to design a good solution for the forthcoming years.
The exact same remark applies here. How many times do we see the question "Can I sync my XXX calendar with this ?" ? How many potential users turn away and look no further when the answer is, "No, there isn't even a calendar" ?
Nokia only needs to choose and fulfill ONE value of "XXX" above and the point will be moot. Any of these look doable :

- Outlook. Probably 99% of potential users. My lowly Nokia 6021 phone has a calendar that syncs with Outlook through Nokia's own PC Suite. Same for Symbian phones, so it's not like rocket science. And on every forum on this planet in which there is at least one IT thread, there is at least one "Help ! Nokia PC Suite doesn't recognize my N800 !" post...

- SyncML. For the open-protocols crowd. Again, the expertise is in-house. And with the variety of SyncML software out there (for phones, palms, pocket PCs, Outlook etc.) that's a lot of birds killed with one stone...

- Google Cal. For the Web 2.0 diehards. Evidently the Maemo team is big on Google. Also the Maemo team is good at Python. So if TahitiBob can do it alone, they can do it too.

And of course, as Mil just said, synching with (at least Nokia) phones should be a no-brainer.

How's that for specs ? :-)
Last edited by fpp; 2007-07-09 at 17:44.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2007-07-09 , 15:56
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#210
fpp, awesome post. Excellent example of details. You said it much better than I could, thanks.
 
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