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attila77 is offline attila77
2010-04-23 , 08:53
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#41
Originally Posted by Bec View Post
Also regarding nanometers, ARM design always seems to be one step behind.
Cortex A8 has 45 (so does my core 2 duo but it's anything but new) while i7 is built on 32 nanometers and the technology for 20 nanometers has already been announced.
Ah, that one is slightly misleading, but easy (though you have to think business). The biggest gain is on the biggest chips, that's why Intel moves mid-to-high end chips there first (yeah, lowering Atom power consumption by 10-20% is cool, but making 15% more i7-s for the same amount of money is a LOT better business-wise as the profit margin on the i7 is significantly higher than on an Atom).

Take a look at the Atoms - not even the newest spanking N4xx/D5xx series is 32nm, they're still good ole 45nm (and even the next-gen, Moorestown, is 45nm). In fact, with OMAP4 and it's Cortex-A9 kin coming this year, ARM will actually be AHEAD even in manufacturing (as the first 32nm Medfield Atoms will arrive only in 2011)

Also this would be a great step for cross platform applications and we could install the same .rpm on our PC as in our mobile device.
Say, something like what Easy Debian already does ? But seriously, Linux already does that pretty painlessly.
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IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2010-05-09 , 19:31
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#42
I really don't know much about cpu architectures... but I don't understand why ARM is still alive. It's almost orgasmic to me thinking an Intel chipset could be use inside a mobile device (such as the N920+), lol, so why isn't it happening? Is the only reason ARM is still being used is because corporations can still squeeze a few profits out of it?!
 
jsa is offline jsa
2010-05-09 , 20:01
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#43
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
I really don't know much about cpu architectures... but I don't understand why ARM is still alive. It's almost orgasmic to me thinking an Intel chipset could be use inside a mobile device (such as the N920+), lol, so why isn't it happening? Is the only reason ARM is still being used is because corporations can still squeeze a few profits out of it?!
A very rough example. You have a laptop and an N900? Let's assume you browse the web on your laptop and your N900 until the batteries run flat. You got maybe six hours of use on both of them. Now take out the batteries and compare them side by side. Imagine your laptop's battery being the size of the N900's battery, how long would it last? That's why ARM is used.
 

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IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2010-05-10 , 00:14
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#44
Originally Posted by jsa View Post
A very rough example. You have a laptop and an N900? Let's assume you browse the web on your laptop and your N900 until the batteries run flat. You got maybe six hours of use on both of them. Now take out the batteries and compare them side by side. Imagine your laptop's battery being the size of the N900's battery, how long would it last? That's why ARM is used.
Very good exemple of an answer, thanks. So by that anology, I understand Power Consumption is one of the main different points. So what about the day we will see fuel cell batteries, would you say ARM would still be used?
 
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ndi is offline ndi
2010-05-10 , 00:37
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#45
To be competitive, ARM RISC is increasing instruction sets while x86 is becoming more and more efficient, effectively leaning against each other. At some point, they will be roughly equivalent, and then x86 will kick asterisk because the compatibility base for x86 is huge.

It's not like ARM will ever die because they do small chips by design while x86 is large by design. ARM will always power small devices, routers, PNAs, etc. x86 will keep on powering behemoth desktops and slim down, taking the anything-larger-than-a-pad market. There's a limit between them, and that limit is moving down. If it reaches the size of slightly-larger-than-N900, we're golden.

Finally, no "app base".

Oh, and it's entirely possible that batteries will never be large enough to accommodate this. We may move forward (laterally?) to supercapacitors, which, even though less than a Li-Ion, can be charged at about any rate. The fact the battery dies in 6 hours is not going to matter if it can be recharged in 10 seconds.

Already proof-of-concept hybrid batteries can be charged in a minute or two. In which case, charge all the time is going to become as common and annoying as the bluetooth headset. Also, wireless power would be nice.
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attila77 is offline attila77
2010-05-10 , 01:56
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#46
Originally Posted by ndi View Post
To be competitive, ARM RISC is increasing instruction sets while x86 is becoming more and more efficient, effectively leaning against each other. At some point, they will be roughly equivalent, and then x86 will kick asterisk because the compatibility base for x86 is huge.
Note that they will never be equivalent. ARM is far more modular and simpler in design, so unless something radical happens in X86 land (which is very unlikely), it will be cheaper and more efficient for years to come. The compatibility base is IMO overrated (what *exactly* do you expect to be able to do on a X86 phone that you weren't able to do on ARM, considering we're talking about Linux ?). The only place where there is a slight gain is the development, but with tools like the Qt SDK, even that advantage is fading.
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bbin is offline bbin
2010-05-10 , 11:40
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#47
Don't you guy's think the new atom z6xx is good for larger 7-10 inch tablets?
 
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ndi is offline ndi
2010-05-10 , 11:47
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#48
Equivalent, no but similar. And when similar enough it makes little sense to not go full monty.

Also, WE are not talking about Linux. We talk about x86, meaning I get to choose the platform, meaning *I* will go with Windows for the app base and my ability to build for the platform with a RAD IDE on a known language.

Might not be a big deal for Linux, but for other OSs it will be gold. Especially open/free Windows.
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attila77 is offline attila77
2010-05-10 , 11:57
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#49
I still don't get what the advantage is, even with Windows ? Today, you have WinMo on which you already use a standard RAD IDE (VisualStudio et al) and it supports multiple architectures. X86 compatibility will not solve any of the UI problems Windows apps face when running on small/touchscreens, and stock win X86 libs/GUIs are not written with mobile (power constrained) use in mind, so, what exactly is the gain ?
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nwerneck is offline nwerneck
2010-05-10 , 12:16
Posts: 304 | Thanked: 233 times | Joined on Jul 2009 @ São Paulo, SP, Brasil
#50
I like the idea of using non-x86 processors, but it's sad that there are no good tools available. I still don't understand well how much is maemo using the capabilities of the OMAP processors, which have an extra DSP, and also if we are using the ARM cores thelves to their full extent (the NEON stuff, etc). And the worst is I don't feel like pushing these boundaries with the current development tools.

I bought my N800 knowing it was something for crazy bit-brushers, and I thought "hey, that's my thing!" But today I have the feeling one has to be a true uber geek to have his fun with it... And there's too many people wanting to make it a desktop in their pockets. That's wrong!

If you ask for a different processor, you are literally going against the _core_ of the tablets!
 
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