VW of course. seems more practical to me. also. i don't want people to believe i'm too short or lack self confidence for other reasons. you know what they say about men with iphones (or red sports cars, for that matter).

I really don't think that Nokia did a bad job at marketing the N900. I mean what in those commercial bits talked about stuff the end-user wasn't interested in?

I think the N900's key failing point was in mind-share. Not sure if that term applies here, but what I mean by it is that it was labeled a "nerd phone" long before release. The N900 is a nerd phone, but the label has stuck harder than necessary, because the phone is also usable by end-users. I think this label emerged from Nokia's "off the ad" talk and the fact that they were purposely leaving stuff out for the community to implement later.

So in my view, it's not about marketing MeeGo in a particular way, but marketing each and every device with MeeGo on it an end-user appealing way, unless of course that isn't the market they're aiming for. Some MeeGo phones could be modified to please the music-listening teenie, the other be pop's powerful yet simple e-mail device etc.

Nokia already did that. Absolute high end. Individual devices will then be optimized to specific tastes, but without seeing them, this has to focus on software.

Then you need to buy a Symbian device. The fact that you're here means you want the "Bugatti" features, like it or not. They're not going to sell well enough unless packaged accordingly, so you need to learn to live with pretty design too

>> Absolute high end.

Are you sure ? Meego is going on netbooks, which are not exactly high end devices.

OK, sure. I was only thinking about phones and tablets. But it could be argued that the best netbook is still the best in its class.

FWIW, the N900 already killed my netbook. Now I carry either nothing or then a laptop with a bigger keyboard. I don't see the netbooks surviving tablets on top of this very well.

My phone is a Symbian device - a Nokia 6110 Navigator. Much better as a phone than the N900 could ever be. Small, all features, no bling.

The fact that I'm here means that I adore Richard M. Stallman and his ideology and therefore need to buy (=support) products built upon these ideas. That's the only reason why I have the N900 (and the 770, the N800 and the N810).

Richard Stallman's ideas usually don't come in pretty design.

OK so are you expecting to spread your ideology based on faith or results? Something has to be the Bugatti too or we're just a bunch of bitter communists, which is not the intent of the GPL.

Edit: what are we even arguing about anymore. If you want a Symbian phone I'm totally ok with that. Just understand that FOSS won't spread at the low end without high end visibility.

I don't want to spread it. I despise people who try to spread their ideologies or religions.... All I want to do is live according to my own moral standards, which include free software and a good amount of happy communism. No Bugatti.

While I applaud your attitude, it's often shortsighted. The people with evil or impractical ideologies will never stay quiet, and if they get enough followers, they'll start causing real problems for people like you. There's power in numbers and we all have to play the same game.

And if you feel the opposing ideology is wrong, don't you have a moral obligation to inform others of the alternatives? Making your point and convincing people with real, practical results is far from becoming an intolerant preacher or forcibly controlling others' behavior. But that kind of people are often what we are up against, and we shouldn't forget that.

Here we disagree. If you do not advertise, thus get the word out... then even the best product will flounder while the mediocre products will flourish. Case in point... Microsoft Windows. Forums/boards don't really get the word out... this place is almost an amorphous mixture of like-minded folks.

Here in the States, even while I was in Japan... Microsoft had presence. It's not about shouting at the top of your lungs like the vintage Sega ads with the "SEGA!!" scream in them (Sega Genesis in the US, Sega Mega Drive elsewhere). But what I'm talking about is merely putting out a presence beyond - well I hate to label even myself - those jaded folks with more ideals about how a phone is marketed as opposed to those that will buy whatever is marketed to them.

How did Microsoft do it? Print ads, very few commercials... most weren't even worth remembering. But it left an impression because they were at least advertising during a time IBM wasn't.

Simply put, advertising never has swayed the hardcore consumer of any product. If I want to buy all Nokia products due to some preconception that I want only Nokia, as a consumer that was my decision to make. To other folks that follow the "Ooh, shiny shiny" trends... they need to be alerted to what's out there, what it does and above all, how others want it too.

That last part, is towards building a consumer level of representation. Something that does not exist in Japan and North America. Until I talk to folks about the different series of Nokia phones, all they know is that Nokia makes the ultra-cheap phones that come for free with their subsidized account with AT&T or whomever.

Normal people don't do research. That's who I mean by reach out to them. You guys are talking about VW's and Bugatti's... I'm talking about Toyota Camry's and whatever is the best seller in your region. In regards to the stuff that's out there, of course there are more expensive options. Like Nokia, want exclusivity, get a Vertu. Same stuff anyway.

But that's neither here nor there. If you're on these boards, advertising won't mean a thing to you. It never probably has, never will.

Nokia needs to increase their presence in regards to what's in the aforementioned markets as well as their upcoming OS endeavors. And sadly, people dictating ad nauseum that "Nokia shouldn't do that" ... have you seen the stock price slide that much in Nokia history?

Advertising can't hurt. And I don't mean the screaming at me type either. That's no longer advertising to me either.

Want screaming... and barely unrecognizable commercials? Look no further than Japan. I seriously thought I was on drugs for 23 months - and I'm 100% drug free mind you - while watching shows in Japan. Those commercials were downright wacky, random and screamed.

I just don't get the whole "do not advertise" mentality of some people - not you directly - that seem to overlook three things:

1. Ads are normally not seen by geeks
2. Ads are not for hardcore consumers/fanboys/fans usually - they don't need to be convinced
3. Ads educate the uneducated to what is coming - so you don't have to

Get outside of yourself for a moment. Without ads, then nobody will know a damn thing about your product.

Case in point - Pandora (handheld emulator). Leave the forums, talk to the layman about that. If they think you're not talking about the Greek myth of Pandora's box, you've located yet another geek more than likely.