+1 Milhouse.

Well said, I think those are relevant points for the good of NIT.

I don't think that Nokia needs to aspire to the traits of the Touch, or the iPhone. The N800 has them both beat in many areas. That includes the Internet browsing experience, so I'm surprised to see you state that the Apple experience is superior (by all acounts it isn't). So a lot of devices have browsers... it's browser capability that will set them apart, not mere presence of a browser. Oh, and as for Canola-- who do you guys think is behind its development?

What really needs to happen, and I know you've said it many times Milhouse, is that Nokia the company needs to figure out what it wants to do with the product line and Get On It! I have to believe that's going to happen soon enough...

No, no, no they don't. Overlapping segments, yes. Same segments, no. The core usage is just too diverse. Again: the common aspects are not what lead people to select one device over another. The distinguising aspects are.

My phone has a digital camera, too, but that's not the main reason I selected it. I picked it to make phone calls. I bought a nice stand-alone digital camera for good shots. I only use the phone camera for occasional convenient shots, not quality ones. The same situation applies to the Touch and the N800 or the iPhone and the N800. I'm not going to buy an N800 to take jogging, and I'm sure not gonna read eBooks on a Touch.

Tex - I agree the N800 still has the other devices beat in some areas, but what I said is that Nokia should aspire to the "usability, quality and appeal" of the Touch. Without doubt Nokia are behind in these areas on NITs.

As for the browser, it's simply no longer the defining factor of any product. Last week, would someone who wanted a mobile internet browsing experience have even considered an iPod? One week later, an iPod will be top of their list.

Yet the N800 is an internet browsing tablet - so what, most people haven't heard of the N800, and won't do the research to find out how much better the N800 is than the iPod Touch (which may or may not be the case - I suspect the Touch and iPhone browsing experience will be more than "good enough" for most people).

Having an internet browser is just another tick in the box nowadays, the Touch has that covered as do many other devices - quality of browsing is actually a secondary consideration (at best) for many people. Consider how many people were impressed by the PSP browser when it first appeared - there were lots, but they simply didn't know any better. People will stop listening after they read that a device has an internet browser, they won't understand the nuances such as high resolution display, standards compliance etc. - not even latest version of Flash in some cases - but they will go "WOW!" when they see Steve Jobs on stage smoothly zooming into a page by squeezing his fingers (or whatever gesture it is!)

And yes, Canola is a Nokia inspired side project, but it's one interface on top of another, with no consistency throughout the entire device. This is where Nokia need to step it up, design a great UI so that Canola doesn't look so out of place, and the good ideas in Canola can be used throughout the device and not just on an application by application basis. The fact that Canola exists as a Nokia project, and the dull as ditch water Media Player exists as standard in the firmware suggests that Nokia don't know what to do - snazzy or dull? Let's go with dull every time - at least it's consistent.

Sorry for the ramble, but functionality is moving on, the landscape is changing and Nokia will be left behind if they stick to their "internet tablets are for web browsing only" stance. Everyone's doing that nowadays, it's old hat.

I think we're all agreed though, Nokia needs to do more, and fast.

Translation: Kick 'em in the jimmy!

Again: the data is not in on the quality of iPod Touch, and iPhones have had numerous quality issues reported.

Despite what appearances this forum may provide, quality really has not been bad on the N800. And appeal is subjective. The N800 appeals to me; iPod Touch does not.

As for usability, the N800 is o-p-e-n and getting more and more so. What you cite as a weakness (Canola looking out of place, etc) *could* be turned into a strength with the right focus. So no hardware limitation there.

Unfortunately that's all I can say on the subject (*awaits wrath from a few members*).

: X

To clarify (and I'm really not certain), are you saying there's nothing Nokia/the NITs[1] can learn from Apple/the iPod Touch? Except, perhaps, the hype you keep mentioning?

They've got *something* because they can consistently turn hype into sales. The iPod line revamp makes the *news* for chrissakes!

I'm beginning to suspect that the NITs are just incapable of providing a really good browser experience. The Apple devices seem to make more of an effort, but without trying one I can't really compare.

We've got desktop browsers shoved in a physically small space, with zoom (desktop browsers have that) and "Optimised view".

The iP{od,hone} have those and more, as well as a better/more slick UI for driving them.

For example, the other night I was sat in bed, connected to our wifi looking for a new gadget bag - a task for which the N800 is supposed to be perfect. But the UI is slow and clunky, links always open in front meaning that I can't even let the slow UI render these complex shopping pages in the background whilst continuing to look through (say) Google results.

Then copy & paste stopped working, and the browser crashed... I just gave up and went and used my wife's laptop instead.

INDt. And we've been regularly told that they're nothing to do with Nokia, except sponsorship. So you can't take the credit now ;-)

The cynic in me says that's hope over experience. Yes, the Nokia Internet Tablet team are very dedicated and passionate, and have invoked the passions of a few thousand users; however there doesn't seem to be any real corporate support (apart from the fact they still have jobs), and there's no joined up thinking across the company.

That's not the case with Apple: they *appear* to act as one company, not lots of little fiefdoms. I know how rare this is in a big company.

Yes, yes, yes they do! Actually, perhaps you're right. The iPod's have a much wider appeal - I was being generous to the N800 ;-)

However, both devices are multimedia devices aimed at people with disposable income to spend on toys.

It's a broken analogy, unfortunately. In the UK at least lots of people are buying phones for their camera, for example the Sony Ericsson K800i is one of the most popular phones, and *is* the primary camera for many of its owners.

Now, I'm like you, I like a proper camera, but that's the minority now. And pandering to a minority only works if you have an excellent all-round experience. The N800 may be "good" or "OK" in a lot of categories, but only some bits of the hardware (mainly the screen) could be called "excellent".

Hardware rarely sells, though, it's what you can do with a device which makes a sale - i.e. software.

Cheers,

Andrew

[1] that's not an adjective on Nokia ;-)

This is a great thread, I've been building up to sharing the opinions expressed here by Milhouse and Aflegg for a couple of weeks now.

I have no doubt that the iPod Touch and the N800 are competing directly, consumers have expectations of portable media: we've gone through the Walkman age to the iPod which went on to add photos, videos, some simple games and now the web browser. The N800 and the iPod Touch can both tick those boxes.

Usability is the key to the experience and Apple excels. Nokia is nowhere near the state of the art. Apple wasn't always so slick though, I bought a 1st generation iPod and it sat in its box for quite some time until iTunes was released for Windows. The MusicMatch software shipped for the early Windows users was woeful to use.

Nokia still has an opportunity, the N800 certainly offers more capabilities than the iPod platform but Nokia's got to throw some weight behind the better applications being developed in the community model. The applications developed with commercial resources and the expectation of commercial return through the service they provide, e.g. Skype and Gizmo Phone, are of the required quality and of the community contributed applications I like Quiver and Evince. The media player offerings are a mess though, maybe the promised Canola revision will hit the mark there.

Having mentioned Skype and Gizmo I have to agree with the statement that the N800 isn't a phone, even with these apps it's not, WiFi simply isn't a common & ubiquitous resource (anyone in the UK remember Rabbit?).

Whatever's going to happen has to happen soon. Today, if I was walking up 5th Avenue, NYC, I wouldn't be turning down E 57th St to the Nokia flagship store as I did back in April to buy my N800. I'd be heading on up to the Apple store for an iPod Touch. I don't think I'd be unique in that choice.

The bar has been set now for the consumer, the personal media device has to have a web browser. Soon, it'll be understood that has to do YouTube, all the Google services, etc. I don't know where the iPod Touch/iPhone's Safari functionality sits with that but the N800 offerings don't adequately meet those requirements yet.

It noise around Apple isn't hype, it's consumer expectation, they do deliver on the expectations but in doing so also carefully protect themselves. There's plenty of debate about lack of developer access to the iP[od/hone] but that policy simply protects the user experience. What vendor wants the hassle of their consumers tweaking their product with enthusiast derived hacks and then coming back to the shop when it's not working. Now there's a contentious paragraph.

My tuppence worth for the direction on N800:
•**get the media player experience sorted with one integrated app (maybe Ovi will do something special for the N800);
•**get the web browser sorted with the Gecko engine
•**get J2ME onto the platform - there's alignment with Google in that & that's valuable

Finally, I am a "techie" (been in the IT industry for 25 years) but I'm a consumer too and, these days, I just want stuff to work. That's not too much to ask.

Hey Milhouse... given the choice between Canola and Media Player, I take Media Player each and every time. I don't like apps that think they own the device and only run fullscreen. I also don't like the waste of resources for flashy crap that's not useful in the slightest and gets in the way. Guess what company's stuff I won't be buying? (I used to be one of those Apple drones years ago - when they actually made good stuff.)

Something I just thought of. iPods are pretty much the only way Apple's stayed afloat over the last few years so a good amount of resources from Apple were behind the development of them. It's their bread and butter. Nokia's bread and butter are phones. The internet tablet project is more or less a small project within the company, not a huge major release that's a make or break prospect for the company. So I think it makes sense that Nokia's not on the same level as Apple in terms of support and development (though I would love to see it).

Fair enough, I personally can't stand the new media player and it's god awful library that has to be navigated using the bread crumb links at the top and the repeated failure to fix bugs - I actually preferred the original media player! My point is that a better looking/glitzy UI for the media player would help sales among the casual consumer, and I guess a simplified UI (third party?) media player could be installed for power users such as yourself.

Milhouse and Aflegg have hit all the nails on the heads here.

Nokia had the chance to be first on something, and now will be seen as follwing in the mainstream, there's no doubt about it.

I've never understood the lack of push on the NITs, I am constantly surprised that no-one i know has heard of them!

The "usability" thing is a very big deal too - it's absolutely shameful that the email app is still as bad as the roll-out of the 770, and if Nokia are now claiming Canola as an in-house, why is it taking so long to get the new updated version out?

But the thing that really, really bugs me about the 800 is the camera. Going back to Apple, one thing the Ives revolution there did was to focus on the practical merged with the desibable in design terms. And so we have the 770 slip on metal case - a brilliant design. Like many others I couldn't believe the 800 had ditched it, but came to the conclusion it was because of the camera - maybe for access reasons, maybe because of the bulge at the top that houses the camera.

BUT, the thing is still useless! it's not good enough to use AS a camera, and its obvious use as a video camera is still not utilised (even worse, it did work as this purpose with the beta video call app, if you were lucky).

So I have a camera that has undoubtedly influenced design but is, at the moment, some eight months in, totally useless.