Would you miss the Council if it was gone? - Page 14 - maemo.org

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	RevdKathy	2010-08-11 , 17:56
	Posts: 2,173 \| Thanked: 2,678 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Cornwall, UK	#131

Originally Posted by Texrat

As you note this is not proper, ie official, consumer support. Any free help provided here is a bonus.

Talking to the wrong wall is a waste of pixels. Smashing your fists on the wrong wall because the right wall remains a wall is moving you into psychotic territory.

It would be so good if this place had a little banner saying what it is and what it is not. So much of the hasle here is about misplaced expectation.

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	Bec	2010-08-11 , 17:56
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Originally Posted by RevdKathy

Maemo.org is also ineffective and (at times) antagonistic if one is using it for the purpose of comminicating consumer issues to Nokia. Talking to a wall is a waste of time... talking to the wrong wall doubly so.

Posting on the conversations forum is useless. That forum is for how should we call them... "noobs". Making yourself heard there is impossible.

On the other hand this is a well built community with representative members that happen to be "organized" in a council if you get my drift...

Nokia conversations would only mean ones voice alone in an entire crowd of people who don't even know how to read the manual (if you bother checking the threads).

So yes, wash your hands as if it were not your problem at all and expect us to move along.

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	Texrat	2010-08-11 , 17:57
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#133

Originally Posted by Bec

Posting on the conversations forum is useless. That forum is for how should we call them... "noobs". Making yourself heard there is impossible.

On the other hand this is a well built community with representative members that happen to be "organized" in a council if you get my drift...

Nokia conversations would only mean ones voice alone in an entire crowd of people who don't even know how to read the manual (if you bother checking the threads).

So yes, wash your hands as if it were not your problem at all and expect us to move along.

Bec, please slow down and read the posts on the last few pages. Carefully. Thoughtfully.

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gerbick	2010-08-11 , 17:58
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Originally Posted by debernardis

The big problem in my opinion is that there is no proper place to address consumer issues.

Thank you debernadis... after the prior comments, this is something that needs to be commented upon.

The council needs to be defined in a way that clarifies what it does/doesn't do. To me, and until this thread, I thought the council had the ear of Nokia in a way that we could say to them "Why don't we have Flash?" or "Why doesn't Maemo 5 support all iterations of Python and not just PyQt or PyGTK (or something else) ?"

Customer grievances don't seem welcome here. Well, not in a way that will result in things getting resolutions. But stuff that supports the developers on the device... that's what the council does do, right?

I'm still trying to get all what the council does and doesn't do and have it in layman terms. Because as it stands, I'm looking at being very wrong in what I originally thought what the council can, cannot do and get done.

I think that's where (at least myself) has been misunderstanding things for quite a while.

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	Texrat	2010-08-11 , 18:04
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#135

Originally Posted by gerbick

The council needs to be defined in a way that clarifies what it does/doesn't do. To me, and until this thread, I thought the council had the ear of Nokia in a way that we could say to them "Why don't we have Flash?" or "Why doesn't Maemo 5 support all iterations of Python and not just PyQt or PyGTK (or something else) ?"

I want to sincerely apologize to you and the community in general for contributing to that confusion. I have tried to push the council toward a larger advocacy role but Jaffa and Quim have made it clear that was MY thought, not anything official. Quim's right: the necessary Nokia channels are not there. I was hoping we could drive their creation. That led to mixed messages.

In the time remaining of this term, I will do my part in correcting such misperceptions. At the same time, I'm open to suggestion:

- should the council's advocacy role be expanded in the way I would personally like?

- if so, how the heck do we convince Nokia? Prior efforts have fallen short and as was mentioned previously, doing the same thing expecting different results is foolish.

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	debernardis	2010-08-11 , 18:05
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Originally Posted by slender

This has been said many times and IIRC qgil has also said that please use
http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/...ces/bd-p/maemo
http://conversations.nokia.com/
And also maybe twitter and own blogs to raise issues that only Nokia can fix.

Also there is bugzilla, but for official support see links.

Texrat interpreted well what I meant. Issues like flash, meego for n900, aren't generally well managed by the helpdesk clerks. A more competent and involved approach is needed, as well as possibly the complicity of selected insiders

which is the peculiar thing we hope to ask through the Council to the Nokians, albeit in an often inconclusive way.
I didn't know though of QG's adviced urls for consumers support, and maybe they should be sticky on the forums.
Thanks Slender for reminding.

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	Bec	2010-08-11 , 18:08
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Originally Posted by Texrat

Bec, please slow down and read the posts on the last few pages. Carefully. Thoughtfully.

I'm sorry but all I see is a polite an eloquent way of saying "not our business".

Unfortunately the council are the ones that have the closest contact with the power users and what they feel should be done.

You are the only voice organized enough and the only bridge between the community and nokia.

If you won't do the right thing and try to bridge the gap things will only get worse.

Originally Posted by Texrat

- if so, how the heck do we convince Nokia? Prior efforts have fallen short and as was mentioned previously, doing the same thing expecting different results is foolish.

You have to try at least. You're the only ones who can feel the pulse of the community and express it's thoughts clearly. Nokia has to get that users here really expect the same support as all other brands(eg Flash 10.1.) How would it be if Google would say froyo is only available for new devices? The perfect way to alienate customers.

Not trying will always bring new and new users pointing at the community.

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Last edited by Bec; 2010-08-11 at 18:14.

	Jaffa	2010-08-11 , 18:10
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Originally Posted by Texrat

- if so, how the heck do we convince Nokia? Prior efforts have fallen short and as was mentioned previously, doing the same thing expecting different results is foolish.

I don't think the question is "how the heck do we convince Nokia?" it's "how the heck do you get the right person in Nokia to talk to?".

For community matters, it's easy: it's Quim. Similarly there are a number of other contacts on similar matters.

But, as has been pointed out, Nokia believe they have appropriate consumer research programmes in place. I think it's impossible to tell, from such a large, complex black box, whether they are effective or not. So, on a lack of evidence, I'll believe the people who say that they are.

I'm pretty sure Quim and Peter would love to say "tada, here's Flash 10 to download"; I don't think it's a lack of knowledge.

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	Jaffa	2010-08-11 , 18:14
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Originally Posted by gerbick

I thought the council had the ear of Nokia in a way that we could say to them "Why don't we have Flash?" or "Why doesn't Maemo 5 support all iterations of Python and not just PyQt or PyGTK (or something else) ?"

Odd choice that last one; firstly, I'm not sure what you mean - and most of my Maemo development is Python based; and secondly Nokia would say Maemo doesn't "support" Python: it's a community solution. So ask the PyMaemo team those questions!

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	Texrat	2010-08-11 , 18:19
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Originally Posted by Jaffa

I don't think the question is "how the heck do we convince Nokia?" it's "how the heck do you get the right person in Nokia to talk to?".

For community matters, it's easy: it's Quim. Similarly there are a number of other contacts on similar matters.

But, as has been pointed out, Nokia believe they have appropriate consumer research programmes in place. I think it's impossible to tell, from such a large, complex black box, whether they are effective or not. So, on a lack of evidence, I'll believe the people who say that they are.

I'm pretty sure Quim and Peter would love to say "tada, here's Flash 10 to download"; I don't think it's a lack of knowledge.

It isn't just consumer research-- the reverse logistics/repair/replace functions are broken. I've seen it from the inside and out.

When I was with the tablet program I found out real quick that our systems and process could not support tablet repair and replacement operations. Care personnel couldn't even enter a product ID! There was no way at all to track returned products! I can only hope that was finally fixed.

But there are 2 stories really: Nokia's problems adding and supporting tablets/mobile computers to the chain and their general perception as failing in Care.

I only want to address the former vis-a-vis this community. No offense at all to Quim, but IF the council's role expanded, we would need engagement not just from community channels but technical, logistic, etc. The community wants these products to succeed, in general, and there's pent up desire to do help.

I personally want to help Nokia improve its customer engagement. I have the necessary knowledge and experience. And for a while I've been in the right place. Now, if other council members disagree and/or Nokia refuses then so be it. It's soon to be moot for me anyway...

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