Would you miss the Council if it was gone? - Page 16 - maemo.org

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Matan	2010-08-11 , 19:22
Posts: 1,224 \| Thanked: 1,763 times \| Joined on Jul 2007	#151

Originally Posted by Jaffa

As has been said, Nokia are providing resources to develop the N900 adaptation layer (and, in their spare team, the same people are working on the N8x0 adaptation layer). Of course, anyone can chip in - and, indeed, that's necessary. The lack of community engagement didn't help the Hacker Editions or Mer.

Is any of the following list provided by Nokia? Because In my opinion all of it is necessary in order to have a chance of real free software community interest:

License to distribute all necessary binary firmware.
Information on power system enough to write replacement BME.
Information about the modem enough to use both voice sms and data using all protocols (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS/HSUPA).
Information about the GPS chip enough to have A-GPS.
Bootloader information needed to write a free flasher.

Without all these you cannot really have a free distribution.

__________________
My repository

"N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan" Is the new "Mer is Fremantle for N810".

No more Nokia devices for me.

	Jaffa	2010-08-11 , 19:24
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#152

Originally Posted by gerbick

Do not center your response around the whole Python portion of my prior response. That would be too myopic in my attempt to understand what the council can, cannot do.

I'm afraid I'm going to, just one little bit to show why when we say we're useful, and other people who are big contributors in the community say we're useful, you (pl.) should listen.

Originally Posted by gerbick

To even simplify further - and NOT go down the whole PyQt, PyMaemo, PyGtk conversation because I'm talking as a consumer, not as a developer - the council supports the developer community it seems moreso than deal with customer grievances.

The letter is written supporting Python in Ovi Store as:

Most apps on Maemo are written by the Maemo community. (With the N900, most devices are bought by the mainstream who never visit talk.maemo.org)
A lot of apps on Maemo are written in Python, as it's the closest language Maemo has which is high-level and can compete with time-limited developers who might otherwise be attracted to Android (Java: OO, GCed) or iOS (ObjectiveC: OO, ...).
Developers also like to make money.
Platforms are evaluated, in the press, on the strength of the app stores. Despite the community's efforts, this is viewed as being Ovi Store for Maemo; rather than maemo.org Extras.
Users use things written by developers.
Therefore, developers putting more stuff in Ovi helps users get more out of their devices.

We aren't favouring developers: but it's a consumer issue which can be addressed from a community approach. QED ;-)

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	RevdKathy	2010-08-11 , 19:32
	Posts: 2,173 \| Thanked: 2,678 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Cornwall, UK	#153

Originally Posted by gerbick

Then care to define which wall people should be trying to talk to? Overly ambiguous and vague rhetoric with no direct solution nor answer is utterly bothersome. Simply put, supply the direction... it's sorely lacking.
.

There have been a number of suggestions made in this thread of Nokia's various consumer and customer feedback mechanisms. I would suggest that they are the 'right' wall.

Getting angry at the wrong people because the right people won't do what you want is destructive and wasteful. Perhaps the ire currently being directed at the Council for not doing what is not their brief would better be directed at:

http://nokia.suggestionbox.com/
http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/
http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/
http://www.forum.nokia.com/
http://www.nokia.com/about-nokia/con...o-our-web-team

I don't for one moment dispute that these places have wall-like listening skills. But they are, at least, appropriate places to be angry.

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Laughing Man	2010-08-11 , 19:35
Posts: 4,556 \| Thanked: 1,624 times \| Joined on Dec 2007	#154

Originally Posted by lemmyslender

I am a consumer. There I said it. Arguing won't change that fact.

Judging by this thread (and many previous threads) it seems that many believe that this community isn't for me. Not that I will leave, as this is the best place to be for all things related to Maemo.

It's just sad to see this community fragmenting to pieces due to Nokia mis-management.

At any rate, I won't be voting in the next election as I believe that the council isn't supposed to be representing me. I do promise to keep the *****ing to a minimum thought.

I don't think there are any restrictions on who can be on the council. I never tried running myself (only voted like you). But if there aren't any restrictions you and anyone else is free to try running for it. I'm sure there are more then enough people to get elected on the "get Nokia to talk to us" platform.

Then you or anyone else can go ahead and try to talk to Nokia and see why things are the way they are. Then try not to be to upset at the community (while I can see the arguments as to how to device the community I ultimately think that if your on this site your part of it) as they continue to attack anyone in a desperate plea for attention from Nokia.

I personally rather have the council put the efforts towards something that can at least be done rather than something that's impossible. And while I may not be directly influenced by what they work on, I am indirectly affected by it as a user of the N900 and the maemo OS.

__________________

Originally Posted by ysss

They're maemo and MeeGo...

"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...

lemmyslender	2010-08-11 , 19:36
Posts: 968 \| Thanked: 974 times \| Joined on Nov 2008 @ Ohio	#155

I'm going to have to go with gerbick on this. I assumed, wrongly it seems, that the council had the ear of Nokia to put forth issues important to the community.

Being as this community is made up of a diverse group, I assumed this meant some of those issues would be ones important to the consumer/enduser type of person. In reality, the council is more concerned with the developer portion of the community. Debmasters, webmasters, sponsorships to meetings, loaner devices, etc, all things more important to developers as opposed to users.

I appreciate what the council tries to do. Recently, the letter about python, in theory, this should eventually help the consumer, through trickle-down. A letter about MyNokia, with a canned legal response.

As I write this, I think, what did the council expect to happen with the letter about MyNokia? From what I've read in this thread, that is far outside the scope of what they (and Quim) think they should be working on. It seems like they could write letters on a variety of subjects (Flash, support issues, MeeGo, etc) that are obviously important to the consumer as well. Sure it may have only resulted in a PR response, but at least the council could say "look we made an effort" (at least as much as they did for MyNokia).

So, from what I've seen expressed, I'll stand on the fact the I don't believe the council should represent me, and as such, I shouldn't vote. Much like being a US citizen, I shouldn't be voting for Canadian stuff.

__________________
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gerbick	2010-08-11 , 19:38
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Originally Posted by Texrat

gerbick, that's unfair to snap at RevdKathy like that. The "wall" has been identified many, many times already, and it isn't here. Yelling at people here doesn't fix Nokia's infrastructure.

It's not a "snap" nor "yell"... in fact, it's nothing of the sort. I'm just simply stating that it does not exist, the answers are not evident and to state otherwise; prove it.

I don't always use "kid gloves" when talking. I shouldn't have to when talking to adults.

Yell at me specifically for providing a false impression of the council's defined scope. I'll take that.

Not yelling. No need. Just clarify. That's what is needed.

As for the banner, any suggestions as to content, etc?

talk.maemo.org - or TMO hereon - is a forum dedicated to all things Maemo including: discussion, announcements, information and questions. TMO facilitates open discussion about discoveries and conversation about all sections of Nokia Maemo devices; however this is not the site to expect Nokia to fix any/all customer grievances.

TMO allows for freedom of speech; however all members are expected to follow a level of conduct that does not allow for continued attacks and/or disrespectful demeanor to other members.

TMO's Council is an elected group that will bring forward community based inquiries and grievances in the effort to address them from elected members in the know. Not all questions are answerable, not all grievances are solvable. But the TMO Council listens, corresponds and engages all discussion.

Something like that perhaps?

Again... I didn't "snap" or "yell" at anybody. Just trying to get some clarity... post haste. If it's still lacking going into the 20th page or so, then mission not accomplished (from my standpoint).

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fatalsaint	2010-08-11 , 19:39
Posts: 3,428 \| Thanked: 2,856 times \| Joined on Jul 2008	#157

Originally Posted by danramos

I'm kinda tiring (bored?) of this topic. Why can't we all just get along?

I still think my way is the best way: Stop buying the Nokia stuff until they deliver something we ACTUALLY want? Vote with your dollars. Nokia is a beast of monetary consumption. Keep buying their half-baked cookies and they'll keep thinking it's top-notch and make more. If you stop, maybe THEN they'll finally start getting hunger pangs and ask, "WHYFOR YOU NO FEED ME NO MORE???" and pay attention.

Council or no, ultimately, your DOLLARS can make the difference.

True.. and this is the only way to really fix anything.. but seriously I'm stuck.

So what's my alternatives? Let's see... I purchase the iPhone and support a draconic evil empire that is akin to Windows for the Desktop... thus pretty much devaluing every personal belief I have and tearing apart every fiber of my being...

Or I get a WinMo phone... See above.

Or I get an Android Phone.. which - I don't hate Google near as much as Apple or WinMo, so in this case I won't feel like I need to commit suicide... but I do hate the actual OS. It's like.. Linux done wrong. I don't like the way google took a good framework.. dismantled it, and put it back together with all new parts that IMHO.. suck. (I'm not a Java fan...) Arguably, Google sucks equally bad at supporting their phones too (being just one: Nexus One).

Or I get Maemo... an Operating System that actually feels second nature to me, is powerful, and brings my home computer with me everywhere I go. But, then I deal with lackluster (if not downright crappy) business decisions that directly affect the usefulness of my phone.

So really... tell me: Where am I supposed to take my money to make anybody change anything? I mean.. I do need a cell phone here.. I can't exactly not own one...

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Last edited by fatalsaint; 2010-08-11 at 19:41.

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	danramos	2010-08-11 , 19:39
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#158

Originally Posted by RevdKathy

There have been a number of suggestions made in this thread of Nokia's various consumer and customer feedback mechanisms. I would suggest that they are the 'right' wall.

Getting angry at the wrong people because the right people won't do what you want is destructive and wasteful. Perhaps the ire currently being directed at the Council for not doing what is not their brief would better be directed at:

http://nokia.suggestionbox.com/
http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/
http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/
http://www.forum.nokia.com/
http://www.nokia.com/about-nokia/con...o-our-web-team

I don't for one moment dispute that these places have wall-like listening skills. But they are, at least, appropriate places to be angry.

You forgot to point them at Nokia's competitors, too. I'm sure Nokia's competition would LOVE to listen to your rants about Nokia's products and explain to you how they might intend to remedy at least SOME of your issues for you.

Bad replacement warranty? We offer INSTANT replacement!
No spare parts/stylus/etc? We got that!
You KNOW they pick their nose and sigh when you call support? You can WALK INTO OUR STORE and clearly see our reps--NOT picking their nose and sighing!

Basically, if Nokia is putting up walls, maybe it's time to walk through some doors and check out the competition. I hold out hope that Nokia will change, too, but I'm FAR happier for having spent my saved up money on my Dell mini9 and my Motorola Droid in lieu of the new same-old Nokia experience during the time when I could have gotten it.

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gerbick	2010-08-11 , 19:41
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Originally Posted by Jaffa

I'm afraid I'm going to, just one little bit to show why when we say we're useful, and other people who are big contributors in the community say we're useful, you (pl.) should listen.

You've just displayed that you're not listening... just wish to center around one/few words in a rather lengthy post. Sorry, but that's a waste of time when you toss out 90% of a discussion only to address 10% and have it be the most minor of details.

Car analogy time... that would be like getting a $250k Ferrari and only commenting on the radio knob.

I suggest otherwise for fruitful discussion hereon.

We aren't favouring developers: but it's a consumer issue which can be addressed from a community approach. QED

But you're not exactly in the position to settle customer grievances either. So to circle back, who does the council support exactly?

One word answers are easier to digest.

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Laughing Man	2010-08-11 , 19:45
Posts: 4,556 \| Thanked: 1,624 times \| Joined on Dec 2007	#160

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

True.. and this is the only way to really fix anything.. but seriously I'm stuck.

So what's my alternatives? Let's see... I purchase the iPhone and support a draconic evil empire that is akin to Windows for the Desktop... thus pretty much devaluing every personal value I have and tearing apart every fiber of my being...

Or I get a WinMo phone... See above.

Or I get an Android Phone.. which - I don't hate Google near as much as Apple or WinMo, so in this case I won't feel like I need to commit suicide... but I do hate the actual OS. It's like.. Linux done wrong. I don't like the way google took a good framework.. dismantled it, and put it back together with all new parts that IMHO.. suck. (I'm not a Java fan...) Arguably, Google sucks equally bad at supporting their phones too (being just one: Nexus One).

Or I get Maemo... an Operating System that actually feels second nature to me, is powerful, and brings my home computer with me everywhere I go. But, then I deal with lackluster (if not downright crappy) business decisions that directly affect the usefulness of my phone.

So really... tell me: Where am I supposed to take my money to make anybody change anything? I mean.. I do need a cell phone here.. I can't exactly not own one...

You know fatalsaint, you and I are in a similar boat. And sadly we have to make sacrifices sometimes. Just like there's no device out there that has all the hardware I wish it had, maybe there's no one OS out there that has all of what I want.

So the only solution is to move back to carrying two devices. But hey, at least you get the benefit of longer battery life by seperating the functionality.

__________________

Originally Posted by ysss