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Would You miss the Council if it was gone?

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fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2010-08-11 , 20:15
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#181
Originally Posted by Laughing Man View Post
b) Not all the phones have access to that crazy hacking party (correct me if I'm wrong). I think it's mainly the large releases that are well publicized (Droid, Galaxy S, Evo 4G). Not sure how the rooting and flashing custom ROMs work with the lesser known devices. Then you have companies like (Motorola?) pulling that chip stunt (though I've read that root access is now possible but not flashing ROMs).

To be fair fatalsaint, you used the G1, which was Google's first development phone. Then I think they switched to the Nexus One.
<veering off topic>

Point 1) Actually I think pretty much all Android devices have been rooted.. and Most (with the exception of... drawing a blank here, it's a recent one with a passworded/encrypted bootloader...) are able to flash third party ROM's. Not just the public ones, I believe. (Not 100% though as I don't know every android device )

Point 2) Of course, I knew the G1 hardware was lacking and it likely could have been the cause of many of my problems (such as the dropping connections.. lack of resources == angry Android == Android making me frustrated.) But, device-specificness has nothing to do with me just not liking the development of it, me not liking the break from traditional linux kernels, me not liking the way compiling and building the ROM and rootfs was a PITA, etc.. All of that was independent of my G1 and done mostly on my Desktop.

The only thing I had to give props to Android for was the SDK's integration with that Emulator and also the device. That was awesome, click a single button and automatically load, deploy, and launch your developed software in either a functional emulator or directly on the phone - while watching the debug output at the same time. That is impressive.

I have emulated the same thing on the N900 using VNC, SSH, and Command Line of course.. but obviously that's not as integrated a single push-button.
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silvermountain is offline silvermountain
2010-08-11 , 20:17
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#182
Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
Are you being sarcastic?

There was not a single closed source blob in Mer - where on -earth- did you get from that we were having lack of openness?

What?

WHAT?

Now I'm just offended. Matan's point that a image with limited functionality without a blob doesn't spark much interest (due to much of the hardware adaptation needing this), does apply to Mer.
Which is ironic cos it's the same people who don't understand that the real world sometimes gives us lemons (blobs) and there's not a damn thing that can be done about it.

And I'll reiterate daperl again (not exact words):

Isn't the lesson from X86 distributions clear? You're only as good as your drivers, proprietary or otherwise.

But lack of openness??. WTF. We had all work happening in the open, mer-chatter for workstreaming, gitorious, OBS projects where everybody could submit to, IRC channel where people -still- hang out. We might have had functionality issues, but don't you dare to claim we did not have openness.

I'm really considering adding '127.0.0.1 talk.maemo.org' to my /etc/hosts tonight so I can actually do what I'm supposed to instead of wasting my time arguing with people with too much of entitlement disorder.

Talk is cheap, go contribute instead. I've had enough of people who talk, talk, talk and talk and do nothing.
Uhh...don't you think he meant lack of openness w/in Maemo?
Nice rant though.
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javispedro is offline javispedro
2010-08-11 , 20:21
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#183
Unfortunately this thread is already starting to become a "let's-everybody-put-out-what-we-thing-is-wrong-with-nokia-again", with the usual points being thrown again (not really open source, crap support, ...).


I DO believe that Nokia is peeing on their customers. The entire Council does believe that too.

I at least DO feel ripped off for having paid for a device and then being excluded from the free Ovi navigation club, yet again giving me this feeling that the Maemo devices team is deep hidden down in a Nokia basement with noone in the surface floors giving a damn. There was a twitch of hope this was going to change when I saw the first N900 ads, but clearly, _clearly_, we're back in the dark ages.

Even as a council member, I am _seriously_ considering not buying the next device unless there are considerable changes, and I encourage you to do so if you don't feel happy with the way Nokia treats you as a customer.

Unfortunately, and much like when the N900 was release, it seems there might be changes. Stupid me will possibly give Nokia another chance .


On to another topic. The council page uses a slight different definition of "community". The way I at least understand it implies that every member gives something, then takes something. So yes, if you're not giving anything, you might feel excluded from it.

In fact, the council position itself is completely unpaid and doesn't have any compensation (at least that I know of ;P ).



So I believe that enlarging the council to take care of "customer issues" stuff will be problematic, mostly because as I customer, I _paid_ for the device and that should be enough for Nokia to listen to me. "Customers" believe that they've already given enough, and this is clearly reflected in the tone of their complaints. This is of course a good thing; forcing some unpaid fellow to take care of those rivers of pain isn't. The paid ones already have enough of it.
Last edited by javispedro; 2010-08-11 at 20:24.
 

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danramos is offline danramos
2010-08-11 , 20:22
Posts: 4,672 | Thanked: 5,455 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA
#184
Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
Are you being sarcastic?

There was not a single closed source blob in Mer - where on -earth- did you get from that we were having lack of openness?

What?

WHAT?

Now I'm just offended. Matan's point that a image with limited functionality without a blob doesn't spark much interest (due to much of the hardware adaptation needing this), does apply to Mer.
Which is ironic cos it's the same people who don't understand that the real world sometimes gives us lemons (blobs) and there's not a damn thing that can be done about it.

And I'll reiterate daperl again (not exact words):

Isn't the lesson from X86 distributions clear? You're only as good as your drivers, proprietary or otherwise.

But lack of openness??. WTF. We had all work happening in the open, mer-chatter for workstreaming, gitorious, OBS projects where everybody could submit to, IRC channel where people -still- hang out. We might have had functionality issues, but don't you dare to claim we did not have openness.

I'm really considering adding '127.0.0.1 talk.maemo.org' to my /etc/hosts tonight so I can actually do what I'm supposed to instead of wasting my time arguing with people with too much of entitlement disorder.

Talk is cheap, go contribute instead. I've had enough of people who talk, talk, talk and talk and do nothing.
Ugh.. killed by my own terrible choice of word composition.

Mer's death was the lack of openness. Yes. A correct phrase.

Not Mer's lack of openness, but by the DEVICES' lack of openness (drivers, mainly).

Hope that makes clearer sense. But the point is--what killed Mer is that the architecture was under lock and key and Mer couldn't function decently without involving a closed-source blob. Seeing as how it didn't use any closed-source anything, Mer was relegated to bottlenecks and dysfunction.

Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
Much Love Stskeeps.. take a step back for a second.. I believe (I'm sure dan will clarify) what he meant was Mer was halted because of the lack of openness of Maemo and the N8x0 series drivers and other components that Mer never successfully was able to get working adaptations for.

That is how I interpreted him, though. I don't think me meant Mer itself was not open.. it was just not viable because the parts it needed weren't.
Thank you for exactly getting it right.
Last edited by danramos; 2010-08-11 at 20:24.
 

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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2010-08-11 , 20:25
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#185
Originally Posted by silvermountain View Post
Uhh...don't you think he meant lack of openness w/in Maemo?
Nice rant though.
'Mer was precisely killed by its lack of openness, but it's cute to see people say that it was the community's fault for not being involved.'

But enough about that. I've explained several times across many threads how a few blobs don't kill you (you probably already have some on your Linux PC) and how we're honestly trying to limit the damage done by them being blobs, now and in the future.

I'm happy Mer is dead.

Timeline wise It would have been built around for an obsolete platform (Maemo5) with severely changed architecture in Harmattan (Maemo6), causing rewrites of many things and then finished off with MeeGo (providing Mer's original goals).

Waste of time if we had continued down that road.
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2010-08-11 , 20:26
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#186
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
So I believe that enlarging the council to take care of "customer issues" stuff will be problematic, mostly because as I customer, I _paid_ for the device and that should be enough for Nokia to listen to me. "Customers" believe that they've already given enough, and this is clearly reflected in the tone of their complaints. This is of course a good thing; forcing some unpaid fellow to take care of those rivers of pain isn't. The paid ones already have enough of it.
I hope I didn't provide the impression above.

What I mean to say is I would personally like the council to have more direct channels into Nokia available. Not to solve every problem for every customer, but to address high-level, far-reaching issues. Like the usb detachment failure. I just wanted to get the ear of the executive manager who was responsible for it, or at least the engineering team. I believe the council should have such access. Just my opinion though.
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danramos is offline danramos
2010-08-11 , 20:31
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#187
Originally Posted by Laughing Man View Post
The only problem I've found with that situation (although it's also a pro) is the..

a) When Google releases an update, it's up to the manufacturers to push the update (granted what Google releases is only for their development phone). So manufactuerers are still in charge of deciding to provide you with an update.

b) Not all the phones have access to that crazy hacking party (correct me if I'm wrong). I think it's mainly the large releases that are well publicized (Droid, Galaxy S, Evo 4G). Not sure how the rooting and flashing custom ROMs work with the lesser known devices. Then you have companies like (Motorola?) pulling that chip stunt (though I've read that root access is now possible but not flashing ROMs).

To be fair fatalsaint, you used the G1, which was Google's first development phone. Then I think they switched to the Nexus One. The modern Android phones pack quite a punch hardware wise. That combined with the optimization in Froyo should solve some of the problems you had.



I'm going hold you to that. =P
I don't know of too many phones that can't be rooted and most are able to have their ROM flashed.

You want a flash rooted Droid X, despite the chip signature crap? BOOM! Done.
http://slashdot.org/submission/1305286/

Even XBOX touted their UNCRACKABLE protection scheme and had it cracked before it even hit store shelves.

At any rate, the value here is that people are able to get what they want out of their Android devices despite the hardware manufacturer. Nokia seems to be doing a lot of the same. So, I don't see much difference. If I had to put money into it, I'd rather go with the one with the more satisfying experience overall (apps, cusstomer service, parts, replacement, walk-in presence, etc.)
 

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javispedro is offline javispedro
2010-08-11 , 20:39
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#188
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
What I mean to say is I would personally like the council to have more direct channels into Nokia available. Not to solve every problem for every customer, but to address high-level, far-reaching issues. Like the usb detachment failure. I just wanted to get the ear of the executive manager who was responsible for it, or at least the engineering team. I believe the council should have such access. Just my opinion though.
I find that very valuable indeed -- in fact reminds me of "bugs.maemo.org" (one of the reasons I entered this community years ago and unfortunately something that seems to be slowly fading away ). A place where you can dedicate some of your time to help the Nokia engineers (hopefully directly and not with shadow accounts in between) diagnose their problems several orders of magnitude faster than any of Nokia's "usual channels" would do.

This is quite necessary for any good open source community around a commercial entity to succeed -- does anybody expect that person Y that possibly knows more about component X than any of company Z employees (because Y might have designed component X!) to go through all of the Z's phone support tiers/layers? (HTC comes to mind).


The issue comes when you get to take care of people who aren't willing to spend the few minutes, as any member of the bugsquad
will tell you, or when the issue at hand doesn't require spending a few minutes diagnosing it ("my usb port just broke. replace my device already!").
I am not sure exactly what such position would entice -- telling people we're not going to replace their devices is something Nokia already excels at .
Last edited by javispedro; 2010-08-11 at 20:41.
 

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danramos is offline danramos
2010-08-11 , 20:42
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#189
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
So I believe that enlarging the council to take care of "customer issues" stuff will be problematic, mostly because as I customer, I _paid_ for the device and that should be enough for Nokia to listen to me. "Customers" believe that they've already given enough, and this is clearly reflected in the tone of their complaints. This is of course a good thing; forcing some unpaid fellow to take care of those rivers of pain isn't. The paid ones already have enough of it.
Which is PRECISELY what I started to wonder back when talking about Tex's taking flack lately. I have to wonder whether this was Nokia's plan all along--to set up a "community" council to represent Maemo, with no real power except to take all the flack from customers, developers and everyone else that Nokia just doesn't want to hear from. It's certainly cheaper and more effective than hiring PR or customer service managers.

Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
'Mer was precisely killed by its lack of openness, but it's cute to see people say that it was the community's fault for not being involved.'

But enough about that.
"its" being a possessive, ambiguous term which might refer to the subject of the sentence or another subject depending on the context in which it is used.

The "its" you highlighted is exactly why I said I chose a poor sentence structure for being clear. "Its" referred to the architecture.

In any case, it's (i-t, apostrophe, s... a contraction of "it is") still cute to see the community being blamed for "not being involved." It was interesting that you decided to feel defensive that way.
 

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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2010-08-11 , 20:50
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#190
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
I have to wonder whether this was Nokia's plan all along--to set up a "community" council to represent Maemo[...]
We, the community, decided to create the "maemo.org Community Council". Nokia didn't have this plan, we did. And we were expressly set up to represent maemo.org, not Maemo.

[...]with no real power[...]
Except, for the sixth(?) time, we do have power. Apply for sponsorship to the summit, or a paid position at maemo.org, and see how much power we've got.
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