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Bijiont	2010-08-12 , 09:18
Posts: 131 \| Thanked: 46 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Michigan	#211

Originally Posted by Stskeeps

You're making a rather interesting statement here. You're assuming community would actually get off their collective asses and fix things and be skilled and capable of doing this if it was open source.

The amount of people skilled in debugging wifi/bt firmware, high-end graphics drivers and battery management is a very low number. Even with applications, GTK+ developers are in high demand. That, combined with their time and will to do anything makes things difficult.

Am I a cynic when I'm wondering if the only way proper productized open source functions in the real world is when people are paid to do it? (or liberated to work on it, same thing).

But at least then the community can take action on very core systems rather than being hog tied with nothing so to speak.

I am all for Nokia fixing bugs however if they state "Sorry we aren't going to do it" then why not open it to the community and see what happens? What harm would it create?

Last edited by Bijiont; 2010-08-12 at 09:21.

anthonie	2010-08-12 , 09:29
Posts: 1,048 \| Thanked: 1,127 times \| Joined on Jan 2010 @ Amsterdam	#212

Stskeeps,

Viable remarks you make, I think. I can only speak for myself. I have had the N900 for a bit more than a month now and am certainly interested in doing things.

I see a lot of common things between the Gentoo community and maemo´s. Both being platforms targeted at tech savy people. I can see why you would say that it´s difficult to get people to move their asses but at the same time I tend to think that lots of people owning this device are not the target group and I think the moaning and whining comes, for a big part, out of this group.

People seem to have expected a device comparable to iPhone or android powered machines, and when it turns out that is not the case, they start to complain. When I bought this machine, I was fully aware of it´s flaws (except for the lack of sync possibilities with linux powered Evolution and the bizar situation of Ovi store only being available for MS systems). For me, those flaws are more of a challenge than a reason to whine and complain.

I plan on working on the issues that I personally have with this device and I suspect other people to feel the same. Call me naive, but I see (no sarcasm here) great potential for this device, regardless of Meego coming to it or not.

Matan	2010-08-12 , 09:31
Posts: 1,224 \| Thanked: 1,763 times \| Joined on Jul 2007	#213

Originally Posted by Peter@Maemo Marketing

I put my vote in now. I would love the council to continue, also in the context of Meego. I, as head of MeeGo Marketing (note: that is not the same than creating consumer marketing for Nokia devices), I need dedicated people that can bring forward a consolidated view on crucial community issues, for example like the one regarding MyNokia subscription or the Python issue.

So you say that the council is very useful for Nokia marketing. That's a new twist. I wonder how come I did not think of that by myself.

BTW, you should not mention the MyNokia trojan, when discussing the council since this is one of the glaring examples of the council's impotence.

Originally Posted by Stskeeps

It's WONTFIX for Maemo5/N900. I've had up to date GFX drivers up and running on MeeGo on N900 with 2.6.35. If anyone wants to dare backport that, they can do so when we have the thing integrated.

But if I dare to backport, how do I distribute it legally to N900 users?

__________________
My repository

"N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan" Is the new "Mer is Fremantle for N810".

No more Nokia devices for me.

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	Stskeeps	2010-08-12 , 09:34
	Posts: 1,671 \| Thanked: 11,478 times \| Joined on Jun 2008 @ Warsaw, Poland	#214

Originally Posted by Bijiont

But at least then the community can take action on very core systems rather than being hog tied with nothing so to speak.

I am all for Nokia fixing bugs however if they state "Sorry we aren't going to do it" then why not open it to the community and see what happens? What harm would it create?

General problem is that open sourcing isn't just about slapping a license on things. It's validating you own the thing, if it's not patent encumbered, trademark encumbered, etc. Checking for validity of the context it's put in. This process takes time and effort.

Fremantle was 43% open source. MeeGo on N900 is 99%, with 1% closed source (SGX, bt firmware, wlan firmware, BME).

Which is more difficult and waste of eachothers time:

* Making MeeGo more great by contributing more open code, apps, control panels, always at the edge of innovation.
* or spending time open sourcing everything from 43% to 100% without any existing organisation that can handle the bits when they're opened and a platform that's ancient by the time we've fixed all the problems we've wanted.

I know what battle I would prefer to take. The one where we actually accomplish something in the open.

__________________
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.

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	Stskeeps	2010-08-12 , 09:37
	Posts: 1,671 \| Thanked: 11,478 times \| Joined on Jun 2008 @ Warsaw, Poland	#215

Originally Posted by Matan

But if I dare to backport, how do I distribute it legally to N900 users?

Hell froze over recently, which may show what times we're in (this is from pvr-bin in non-oss in MeeGo, for Moorestown SGX):

User Space Graphics Driver Binary License
Copyright (c) 2008, Intel Corporation.
Portions (c), Imagination Technology, Ltd.
All rights reserved.
Redistribution and Use. Redistribution and use in binary form, without modification, of the software code
provided with this license (“Software”), are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
• Redistributions must reproduce the above copyright notice and this license in the documentation and/or
other materials provided with the Software.
• Neither the name of Intel Corporation nor the name of Imagination Technology, Ltd may be used to endorse
or promote products derived from the Software without specific prior written permission.
• The Software can only be used in connection with the Intel hardware designed to use the Software as
outlined in the documentation. No other use is authorized.
• No reverse engineering, decompilation, or disassembly of the Software is permitted.
• The Software may not be distributed under terms different than this license.
Limited Patent License. Intel Corporation grants a world-wide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license under patents
it now or hereafter owns or controls to make, have made, use, import, offer to sell and sell (“Utilize”) the Software,
but solely to the extent that any such patent is necessary to Utilize the Software alone. The patent license shall not
apply to any combinations which include the Software. No hardware per se is licensed hereunder.
Ownership of Software and Copyrights. Title to all copies of the Software remains with the copyright holders. The
Software is copyrighted and protected by the laws of the United States and other countries, and international treaty
provisions.
DISCLAIMER. THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS
IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED
WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN
NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNERS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT,
INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT
LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS;
OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN
CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY
WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

Last edited by Stskeeps; 2010-08-12 at 09:42.

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baxyp	2010-08-12 , 09:51
Posts: 32 \| Thanked: 94 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Pärnu, Estonia	#216

Originally Posted by Stskeeps

It's WONTFIX for Maemo5/N900. I've had up to date GFX drivers up and running on MeeGo on N900 with 2.6.35.

I know it is wontfix and meego will have better drivers, but the question remains. Unofficial backport may be possible and I'm certainly willng to give it a try, but it is a thing which should really be in PR update IMO, so everybody can benefit automatically after fw update. I dont think it is unreasonable to request official fixes to defects, which ruin maemo UX and make developers unhappy.

Bijiont	2010-08-12 , 09:56
Posts: 131 \| Thanked: 46 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Michigan	#217

Originally Posted by Stskeeps

General problem is that open sourcing isn't just about slapping a license on things. It's validating you own the thing, if it's not patent encumbered, trademark encumbered, etc. Checking for validity of the context it's put in. This process takes time and effort.

Fremantle was 43% open source. MeeGo on N900 is 99%, with 1% closed source (SGX, bt firmware, wlan firmware, BME).

Which is more difficult and waste of eachothers time:

* Making MeeGo more great by contributing more open code, apps, control panels, always at the edge of innovation.
* or spending time open sourcing everything from 43% to 100% without any existing organisation that can handle the bits when they're opened and a platform that's ancient by the time we've fixed all the problems we've wanted.

I know what battle I would prefer to take. The one where we actually accomplish something in the open.

Hmm good point I didn't think about it like that. . .

	nicolai	2010-08-12 , 10:03
	Posts: 1,637 \| Thanked: 4,424 times \| Joined on Apr 2009 @ Germany	#218

Originally Posted by Stskeeps

You're making a rather interesting statement here. You're assuming community would actually get off their collective asses and fix things and be skilled and capable of doing this if it was open source.

Hey?

Originally Posted by Stskeeps

The amount of people skilled in debugging wifi/bt firmware, high-end graphics drivers and battery management is a very low number.

Why always do focus on device driver?

Originally Posted by Stskeeps

Even with applications, GTK+ developers are in high demand. That, combined with their time and will to do anything makes things difficult.

I wouldn't call me a real GTK+ developer (I have started with
GTK Programming a half year ago).But:
I am impatiently I want to see the media player widget source, just
to find out why for some/many users this doesn't work.
I want to integrate custom ringtone profiles, without writing the
whole control panel plugin from scratch.
I want to integrate addressbook groups.
I want to integrate per contactact ringtone.
I want to fix bugs in the calendar widget, without writing one from scratch.
I want to make the most of the full power of the n900 and fremantle.

I thought all this would be possible with an mostly open source OS.
But, some parts are closed. Ok, there are reasons for this.
The point is, I don't know why, and I can not see if it will change.

And yes, I would miss the council.
regards
Nicolai

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johnel	2010-08-12 , 10:08
Posts: 999 \| Thanked: 1,117 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ earth?	#219

I would miss the council.
They are volunteers trying to do the best they can.

I would NOT miss the trolls in this forum.

Someone should start a similar thread "Would you miss the Trolls if they were gone? "

But I just don't care enough about this thread to do something about it.

__________________
I like cake.

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	smoku	2010-08-12 , 10:21
	Posts: 1,716 \| Thanked: 3,007 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Warsaw, Poland	#220

Originally Posted by nicolai

I am impatiently I want to see the media player widget source, just
to find out why for some/many users this doesn't work.
I want to integrate custom ringtone profiles, without writing the
whole control panel plugin from scratch.
I want to integrate addressbook groups.
I want to integrate per contactact ringtone.
I want to fix bugs in the calendar widget, without writing one from scratch.
I want to make the most of the full power of the n900 and fremantle.

I would like to have these apps on FreGo.
If Nokia is not interested in Maemo5 and GTK+ anymore and puts all its eggs in Qt basket, why these apps are closed? I don't really foresee any IP issues there or the code so ugly we're ashamed to show.
Looks a lot like The Dog in the Manger case...

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