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Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2010-08-13 , 22:30
Posts: 3,401 | Thanked: 1,255 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ London, UK
#21
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Ahem. Patent lawsuit. Not copyright.
No, it's a Patent and Copyright lawsuit.

Full details here, title of the court document is "COMPLAINT FOR PATENT AND COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT" which details 7 counts of patent infringement and one count of breach of copyright.

Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Also, Dalvik uses Dalvik tokenized code--it doesn't produce Java tokenized code. You WRITE your source in Java, but the Android system runs Dalvik compiled code. So, not quite right.

Read the details I'd posted earlier.
Not according to the first point in the Update and Errata box here which states that the Android SDK does not generate Dalvik bytecode directly but that the SDK uses the Java compiler to generate Java bytecode from Java sources and then uses the dx tool to convert the Java bytecode into Dalvik bytecode.

And I believe it is this indirect Java source code to Dalvik bytecode generation that Oracle are now saying is a breach of copyright:

40. On information and belief, users of Android, including device manufacturers, must obtain and use copyrightable portions of the Java platform or works derived therefrom to manufacture and use functioning Android devices. Such use is not licensed. Google has thus induced, caused, and materially contributed to the infringing acts of others by encouraging, inducing, allowing and assisting others to use, copy, and distribute Oracle America’s copyrightable works, and works derived therefrom.
Last edited by Milhouse; 2010-08-13 at 22:33.
 

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danramos is offline danramos
2010-08-13 , 22:38
Posts: 4,672 | Thanked: 5,455 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA
#22
Originally Posted by Milhouse View Post
No, it's a Patent and Copyright lawsuit.

Full details here, title of the court document is "COMPLAINT FOR PATENT AND COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT" which details 7 counts of patent infringement and one count of breach of copyright.



Not according to the first point in the Update and Errata box here which states that the Android SDK does not generate Dalvik bytecode directly but that the SDK uses the Java compiler to generate Java bytecode from Java sources and then uses the dx tool to convert the Java bytecode into Dalvik bytecode.

And I believe it is this indirect Java source code to Dalvik bytecode generation that Oracle are now saying is a breach of copyright:
Yep... I corrected my posting afterwards for the first bit. Still curious about how the patent part will effect this moreso than the copyright.

I didn't realize the second, though. Thanks for the correction. This will be an interesting case for me to read up on even for the technical details.
 
Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2010-08-13 , 23:00
Posts: 3,401 | Thanked: 1,255 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ London, UK
#23
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Still curious about how the patent part will effect this moreso than the copyright.
Patents can be (and often are) invalidated during a court case, and determining if a patent has been infringed upon isn't always black and white.

Breach of copyright claims on the other hand are usually much harder to dismiss if the copied works are easy to identify (which is often the case with source code and documentation).

IANAL however, but it should be interesting to hear more about the details as the case continues.

I'm not really in favour of software patents so would be quite happy to see Oracle lose that part of this case, but on the other hand duplicating the work of another is simply not on in which case if the copyright claims are proven then Google should pay suitable damages.

Either way though this case means absolutely nothing to anyone other than Google and Oracle right now - the case has no bearing on Java whatsoever (other than to focus minds on getting a licence if you want to do business with Oracle...)
 

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egoshin is offline egoshin
2010-08-13 , 23:57
Posts: 992 | Thanked: 995 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ California
#24
Well, I think it is a first nail in Java coffin.

It is not bad.
 

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Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2010-08-14 , 00:06
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#25
Originally Posted by egoshin View Post
Well, I think it is a first nail in Java coffin.

It is not bad.
Java is pretty huge in the enterprise - particularly on servers (Java never really succeeded on the desktop) and I still don't see how this spat between Oracle and Google will change any of that.

On low-end Symbian phones Java will continue to be the development environment of choice (I don't think there are any plans for Qt to replace Java Mobile Edition, are there?) so again, this lawsuit changes nothing.
 

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egoshin is offline egoshin
2010-08-14 , 00:12
Posts: 992 | Thanked: 995 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ California
#26
Originally Posted by Milhouse View Post
so again, this lawsuit changes nothing.
Will you plan some new product with Java as base language after that?

Or just chose Python/Ruby/Perl?
 
Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2010-08-14 , 00:21
Posts: 3,401 | Thanked: 1,255 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ London, UK
#27
Originally Posted by egoshin View Post
Will you plan some new product with Java as base language after that?
Sure - I'd just be aware of the licence that I am agreeing to (ie. GPL) when using Java and make sure I don't breach it. For virtually all enterprises and end users the current terms of the Java licence are absolutely fine, it's only a high profile outfit like Google that is likely to come a cropper as their technology sails so close to the wind and they don't have a licence with Sun/Oracle of any kind whatsoever.

If I thought there was any hint of a problem, and for that I'd have to be developing some sort of Java-like alternative, then I'd either negotiate an appropriate licence for the technology from Oracle or use some alternative but freely available technology, depending on what is cheaper/best for the project. Which is what Google could/should have done (or maybe even did do - now up to the court to decide).

For 99.99% of Java users today this lawsuit is not an issue.
 

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egoshin is offline egoshin
2010-08-14 , 01:15
Posts: 992 | Thanked: 995 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ California
#28
Originally Posted by Milhouse View Post
If I thought there was any hint of a problem, and for that I'd have to be developing some sort of Java-like alternative, then I'd either negotiate an appropriate licence for the technology from Oracle or use some alternative but freely available technology, depending on what is cheaper/best for the project. Which is what Google could/should have done (or maybe even did do - now up to the court to decide).
You can think that you are free from Sun licensing. Unfortunately, Sun may start think differently... later.

And that is a risk for investments. I would be not surprised if Java-based projects now may be downgraded from investors point-of-view.
 
kureyon is offline kureyon
2010-08-14 , 02:36
Posts: 992 | Thanked: 738 times | Joined on Jun 2010 @ Low Earth Orbit
#29
Originally Posted by egoshin View Post
Will you plan some new product with Java as base language after that?
What kind of question is that?

It's like when companies gets sued over GPL violations, pro-MS "commentators" jump out and ask would "Would you use GPL software when there is the risk of being sued".

Don't do anything illegal and you won't get sued and if you still do get sued at least you have a leg to stand on.
 

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maluka is offline maluka
2010-08-14 , 02:56
Posts: 741 | Thanked: 900 times | Joined on Nov 2007 @ Auckland NZ
#30
Maybe Google should switch to MeeGo now.
 

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