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2007-10-11
, 20:47
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#332
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Originally Posted by Milhouse
It may be finger friendly, but I'm quite certain that it is not as consistent as the fanboi crowd wants us to believe.
Well I only looked at it over lunch, but I saw nothing that seemed to faze it (and I went through most of the standard apps, plus a few "extras" my friend had installed) and pretty much all the gestures seemed fluid and intuitive from what I could see - in fact I don't recall seeing any pop up menus for example, the UI is incredibly finger friendly.
They do say a fool and his money are easily parted!
There's no reason why Nokia cannot provide fast application startup, a unified UI *AND* an open platform - if the UI falls apart due to community developers not following the Nokia UI standard, that isn't Nokias fault. The devices as they comes out of the box should be able to satisfy all of my requirements - if Apple can do it, Nokia should be up to the job too. So far they have only demonstrated they are not - you'd think the OS 2007 Hildon UI is from the Jurassic era when compared side-by-side with that of the iPhone. OS 2007? Maybe it should be OS 1997, or even OS 1987...
If the UI is designed correctly, I don't see why there should be any reason for conflict. The current OS 2007 UI - as it comes out-of-the-box - falls far short of being a consistent UI, it's as if Nokia forgot to write a style guide (or worse, didn't enforce it), and the situation only becomes worse as more Nokia approved applications (Skype, Video Center, FM Radio, Media Streamer) are installed as they're all different with their own little widgets, themes and means of control and navigation.
That last one was no joke; we're dealing with the fundamental philosophy of openness here: the developer is free to do what he wants. Period.
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2007-10-11
, 21:23
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Posts: 662 |
Thanked: 238 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
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#333
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If you give developers something decent to work with in terms of a UI toolkit and such, why wouldn't anyone use it? Nokia and Maemo have given everyone an ancient and somewhat mussed (in some cases) GTK toolkit to build on. This either means that a developer has to load his own libraries or stick to what the device already has. Maybe that's why the iPhone and the Touch are so damned responsive, all the apps use the same graphics libraries and other such things.
Nokia just needs to give better clay to the sculptors so they needn't fetch their own.
Nokia just needs to give better clay to the sculptors so they needn't fetch their own.
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2007-10-11
, 21:52
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Posts: 3,401 |
Thanked: 1,255 times |
Joined on Nov 2005
@ London, UK
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#334
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Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
Maybe so, but what I saw looked pretty consistent - far more so than the disjointed Nokia UI.
It may be finger friendly, but I'm quite certain that it is not as consistent as the fanboi crowd wants us to believe.
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
As I said, Nokia is not responsible for the UI that is used/abused by community developed applications, which is meant to imply that Nokia *IS* responsible for the UI on applications that it ships with the device and certifies for subsequent download.
You can't have it both ways: If Nokia dictates how developers should make their applications look and feel, it can no longer be called an open platform. And I don't want it that way; just one example: Horizon is a beautiful app (if not quite finished), yet its user interface breaks all Hildon conventions. Regardless, I cannot see a better way for tht application to be controlled than the way it is now. Should they be forced to comply to Nokia's idea of a user interface?
Nokia is perfectly capable of enforcing a consistent UI on it's own device, and also when it sponsors or engages third-parties to create applications, but beyond that it has no ability (or right) to enforce the UI on community developers.
That said, if the UI is well designed then chances are the community developers will happily go along with what Nokia provide (by and large). If the native UI is good they'll use it, if it's not they'll abuse it. Even Nokia themselves abuse it, so what does that tell us?
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
Agreed. But when the UI is well designed (and more importantly, well defined), the developer doesn't have to re-invent the wheel unless it's absolutely necessary, which probably applies in the case of Horizon. However with a good UI, examples such as Horizon will be the exception rather than the norm.
That's how open platforms work: without central control. Like it or leave it...
That last one was no joke; we're dealing with the fundamental philosophy of openness here: the developer is free to do what he wants. Period.
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2007-10-11
, 22:25
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#335
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I get the feeling we're talking about different things here.
If you mean to say that Maemo/Hildon is a crappy GUI, then I'm with you all the way: It sucks dinosaur bollocks.
But if you're insisting that there should be only One True GUI on Nokia's Internet Tablets, then: Sorry, dude, you've lost me. I believe that, if anything, we should have more GUIs on the tablets: portable Gnome, OpenMoko, heck why not OpenEinstein. They're all good.
You see, the iPhone (<spit!>) is a consumer package: You pay for what you get, which is a lot of shiny, polished stuff, but what you see is what you get.
The tablets are tools to get stuff done. What the stuff is you want to get done, is up to you, not Nokia. And Nokia is -- admittedly slowly -- starting to grok that in a way that Apple sadly has lost. Sure, I b*tch about the lack of gloss, the crappiness of the GUI, the idiocy of Killer Firmwares, but the last thing I want is for my b*tching to result in Nokia going the Apple way.
Look at it this way: Every app that hangs your tablet, is (cue soppy music) a testimony of your freedom; every button that lags for half a second asserts you as a proud, non-fruity, independent computer user; every zany toolbar impudently proclaims: "I belong to a geek!"
Hold your head high! <snif! snif!>
If you mean to say that Maemo/Hildon is a crappy GUI, then I'm with you all the way: It sucks dinosaur bollocks.
But if you're insisting that there should be only One True GUI on Nokia's Internet Tablets, then: Sorry, dude, you've lost me. I believe that, if anything, we should have more GUIs on the tablets: portable Gnome, OpenMoko, heck why not OpenEinstein. They're all good.
You see, the iPhone (<spit!>) is a consumer package: You pay for what you get, which is a lot of shiny, polished stuff, but what you see is what you get.
The tablets are tools to get stuff done. What the stuff is you want to get done, is up to you, not Nokia. And Nokia is -- admittedly slowly -- starting to grok that in a way that Apple sadly has lost. Sure, I b*tch about the lack of gloss, the crappiness of the GUI, the idiocy of Killer Firmwares, but the last thing I want is for my b*tching to result in Nokia going the Apple way.
Look at it this way: Every app that hangs your tablet, is (cue soppy music) a testimony of your freedom; every button that lags for half a second asserts you as a proud, non-fruity, independent computer user; every zany toolbar impudently proclaims: "I belong to a geek!"
Hold your head high! <snif! snif!>
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2007-10-11
, 22:37
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Posts: 1,310 |
Thanked: 820 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Irving, TX
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#336
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Mozilla (Firefox) has woken up about the mobile devices internet potential...
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2194399,00.asp
N800 and iPhone are both mentioned there...
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2194399,00.asp
N800 and iPhone are both mentioned there...
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2007-10-11
, 22:52
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Posts: 1,310 |
Thanked: 820 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Irving, TX
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#337
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Slightly off topic... but now you can iUnlock 1.1.1 version iPhone. Also iUnbrick is supported!
http://www.iphonesimfree.com/cgi-bin...e.pl?page=home
http://www.iphonesimfree.com/cgi-bin...e.pl?page=home
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2007-10-11
, 23:15
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Posts: 3,401 |
Thanked: 1,255 times |
Joined on Nov 2005
@ London, UK
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#338
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Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
I'm with you there - agreed.
If you mean to say that Maemo/Hildon is a crappy GUI, then I'm with you all the way: It sucks dinosaur bollocks.
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
No, I'm not saying there should be only one GUI, I'm saying that Nokia should ship a fantastic GUI and use it consistently with all the apps *they* ship and any applications they sanction from third parties.
But if you're insisting that there should be only One True GUI on Nokia's Internet Tablets, then: Sorry, dude, you've lost me. I believe that, if anything, we should have more GUIs on the tablets: portable Gnome, OpenMoko, heck why not OpenEinstein. They're all good.
Nokia should recommend a well documented style guide to the community, but should not enforce (only recommend) that style on the community - if a developer thinks they can do a better job with the GUI, nobody should stop them having a go, least of all Nokia.
My point is this: whatever applications Nokia produce, the GUI they use should be consistent and insanely great - it's the showcase that will sell devices. If a community developer then wants to release an application with a GUI which makes GEM look sophisticated, nobody has any right to stop them. If there is a community project to replace the whole Nokia GUI, fine, go right ahead - it's an open platform after all.
On the whole, a well designed GUI will be used and adhered to automatically by most developers without too much effort or cajoling. It's when that GUI is broken that developers start doing their own thing, which only serves to drive down the usability of the overall device.
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
I want gloss, non-crappy GUIs *AND* the Nokia (open) way!! I want it ALL! (And I can't see why I can't have it - seriously!)
Sure, I b*tch about the lack of gloss, the crappiness of the GUI, the idiocy of Killer Firmwares, but the last thing I want is for my b*tching to result in Nokia going the Apple way.
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2007-10-11
, 23:33
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Posts: 481 |
Thanked: 65 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ Westcountry, UK
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#339
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Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
it has inconsistencies, but not real show stoppers and it is well thought out.
It may be finger friendly, but I'm quite certain that it is not as consistent as the fanboi crowd wants us to believe.
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
Of course it can. As long as they don't stop you from making it how you want to make it, they can say what they want. And I think they should.
You can't have it both ways: If Nokia dictates how developers should make their applications look and feel, it can no longer be called an open platform.
Making something consistent is just a matter of making it really easy to do it the 'right way' and harder to do it differently. That way if you want to do it differently then you still can, but if you don't then you don't get it wrong accidentally.
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
The developer should always be free to do what he wants, as long as he is doing it intentionally. Then it is up to the user of the software to decide if they want the software that works differently to the rest of the system. If they do it would thrive, and if not then it would probably die.
That's how open platforms work: without central control. Like it or leave it...
That last one was no joke; we're dealing with the fundamental philosophy of openness here: the developer is free to do what he wants. Period.
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2007-10-12
, 00:39
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Posts: 1,513 |
Thanked: 2,248 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ US
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#340
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Originally Posted by Mara
It says Mozilla has been released for N800. But it's still in beta...
Mozilla (Firefox) has woken up about the mobile devices internet potential...
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2194399,00.asp
N800 and iPhone are both mentioned there...
right?
There's no reason why Nokia cannot provide fast application startup, a unified UI *AND* an open platform - if the UI falls apart due to community developers not following the Nokia UI standard, that isn't Nokias fault. The devices as they comes out of the box should be able to satisfy all of my requirements - if Apple can do it, Nokia should be up to the job too. So far they have only demonstrated they are not - you'd think the OS 2007 Hildon UI is from the Jurassic era when compared side-by-side with that of the iPhone. OS 2007? Maybe it should be OS 1997, or even OS 1987...
Fingers crossed Chinook will add the gloss and sheen that is so desperately lacking in Hildon and the OS in general. Would I have made these comments 6 months ago? Probably not, but now that the bar has been set so high by Apple my opinion has had to change.