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gerbick
2010-09-22 , 04:14
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#51
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
Well hold on there. Ubuntu doesn't actually do any support for "hardware" at all. If you have an Nvidia or ATI video card you get extremely shatty 3D unless you get their respective closed source drivers.
It does support AMD or Intel out of the box. The other drivers, like wi-fi et al are also supported out of the box (usually). So yeah... Ubuntu does have generic drivers on top of vendor specific and supplied drivers.

That is no different at all between MeeGo on the N900 requiring certain closed source drivers for the components.
Only difference... Nokia has never released their closed source drivers. If they had, my faith would be a bit different on how this will all play out.

Granted, this hasn't happened yet and is wishful thinking at current time, but it's at least at the same playing field as ATI contributing code to the the open source drivers while still maintaining their closed source counterpart.
It happens. Now, let's see Nokia do that with the BME.

Also, I was running pieces of 2.0 on my G1 long before the first 2.0 device hit market.. You don't need to wait for anybody..
Yeah, I could run Froyo via XDA right now; but to be honest, I've already hacked, probed and played around enough already. Voodoo lagfix, GPS fix, Media Hub from the Epic 4G, Google Voice version that came from the Nexus One, Market Access, et al... but you know, I know that Froyo is coming via Samsung and I'm going to be patient (or patient enough until there's a Froyo + lagfix + GPS fix + FULL market availability) ROM out there.

I cannot say the same for Maemo. If I want to make phone calls, use the web, use the terminal, continue with the experience that I expect from my N900 (that just sounds weird), then PR1.2 is it. There's no custom ROM's, nothing really outside of the excellent Nitdroid or a few other Debian hacks here and there. But those turn it into a tablet; which isn't bad. But I bought a phone (too).

Ubuntu has had multiple releases, MeeGo not yet one.
You're 100% right. And I'm jumping the gun. I'll lay off and watch what happens. Hell... in this case, I absolutely want to be proven wrong.

That entirely depends on your definition of "one-for-one". Remember, most things on the N900 are third party. As long as MeeGo provides us a working, functioning, user interface with some basic utilities such as a launcher and a way to add applications via a manager - everything else comes in the form of a third-party software release.
Like when I was talking to STSKeeps... I want to be able to replace the OS, make the phone calls, et al without losing any functionality. Flash Player inclusive - I know, I know... Flash is Adobe, not Nokia. But I don't want to lose that unless I choose to do so.

But again.. Ubuntu itself I don't believe really supports people (is there an "Ubuntu" phone number where you get 24 hour support for whatever system you're running?
Not what I meant. I only call support due to a client's request - and it's usually to Microsoft. I don't call support for personal support, ever. I'm talking about official support of an upgrade from the vendor that fully supports the device as only the originator of the device can.

Piecing together a Laptop is not easy.
It does exist.

Just because my computer doesn't support the newest printer that just got released, or the latest hardware from a vendor because they don't yet have a Linux driver - doesn't make my computer any less of a computer either.
But the possibility of it being supported in the future if it is indeed a desktop/laptop/netbook is much higher than a phone. A computer usually gets support. A phone, not so much.

I, for one, think Moobs are awesome!!! (wait.. did I just put that in public? ****..)
Wow.
Last edited by gerbick; 2010-09-22 at 04:17.
 

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AMLJ is offline AMLJ
2010-09-22 , 04:19
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#52
Well, Ubuntu always sucks :lol:

Why do you try Mint, Ubuntu, etc. but not the real thing, Debian?

I recommend you try that one, both on your N900 and your PC. Just a suggestion.
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AMLJ is offline AMLJ
2010-09-22 , 04:26
Posts: 226 | Thanked: 59 times | Joined on Sep 2010 @ Mierlo, Netherlands
#53
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
So? A moniker is just a label that makes the people that need comfort find it. Doesn't matter what which label you pick, if it does what it says it can, it'll be that. So when you make a call, it's a phone. When I recompile a kernel on a server I administer, it's a pocket computer. When I need it to work... it better be a functioning gadget.

Either way, I don't care for labels that people fully subscribe to - they change way too ofter according to my use on such a diversified (in terms of functionality) gadget.

I know what a N900 truly is. And at times, it's wonderful. At other times... it's frustrating. Then again, so are other gadgets.
Never frustrating for me, and many others I know... Can you give examples?

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
We're alike in this... I don't care what you think a computer is either.
Good, we even now!

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
No need. I just need one OS that works and is officially supported.
Have fun that way!
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fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2010-09-22 , 04:29
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#54
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
It does support AMD or Intel out of the box. The other drivers, like wi-fi et al are also supported out of the box (usually). So yeah... Ubuntu does have generic drivers on top of vendor specific and supplied drivers.
So does MeeGo.. with respect to intel based netbooks. MeeGo also has support for the N900 out-of-box and the Intel Moorestown.



Only difference... Nokia has never released their closed source drivers. If they had, my faith would be a bit different on how this will all play out.
They are right now.. every week.. with every weekly build of MeeGo. At least until MeeGo is able to distribute them directly.


Yeah, I could run Froyo via XDA right now; but to be honest, I've already hacked, probed and played around enough already. Voodoo lagfix, GPS fix, Media Hub from the Epic 4G, Google Voice version that came from the Nexus One, Market Access, et al... but you know, I know that Froyo is coming via Samsung and I'm going to be patient (or patient enough until there's a Froyo + lagfix + GPS fix + FULL market availability) ROM out there.

I cannot say the same for Maemo. If I want to make phone calls, use the web, use the terminal, continue with the experience that I expect from my N900 (that just sounds weird), then PR1.2 is it. There's no custom ROM's, nothing really outside of the excellent Nitdroid or a few other Debian hacks here and there. But those turn it into a tablet; which isn't bad. But I bought a phone (too).
This isn't so much the N900 not being a computer as it is the community hasn't successfully put something together yet. Maybe because those that are capable actually find their phones quite useful as is. The small closed parts we want to change we change directly (hildon-desktop modifications, FMTXd, etc.)

So really one could argue there is less "maemo" builds for the N900 as there are Android builds for Droid phones because.. well.. we don't need them .

Like when I was talking to STSKeeps... I want to be able to replace the OS, make the phone calls, et al without losing any functionality. Flash Player inclusive - I know, I know... Flash is Adobe, not Nokia. But I don't want to lose that unless I choose to do so.
Phone calls will be a requirement. Flash however is entirely out of the question for MeeGo. Ubuntu does not offer flash, you have to install it. And it's actually not a normal repository install either.. they've hidden it well, but if you ever watch the terminal output of flashplugin-installer it doesn't just grab a deb and load it - it actually has a simple script that does a wget to download the adobe installer and then set it up on your computer.

So in this case, you are squarely facing Adobe on whether you'll get it or not. If they make an ARM port for MeeGo - you'll see it. If not .. maybe someone will get the Android one to work - but none of this can be blamed on the N900, or MeeGo.

It does exist.
Not what I said.. I said it's possible - it's just not usually for the normal person to do. Working in a desktop and putting together the Desktop pieces are unimaginably easier than working within the tight compounded space of a laptop.

Wow.
Come on now..


You know you want 'em
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slender is offline slender
2010-09-22 , 04:30
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#55
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
I cannot say the same for Maemo. If I want to make phone calls, use the web, use the terminal, continue with the experience that I expect from my N900 (that just sounds weird), then PR1.2 is it. There's no custom ROM's, nothing really outside of the excellent Nitdroid or a few other Debian hacks here and there. But those turn it into a tablet; which isn't bad. But I bought a phone (too).
What do you need? I don't quite understand your comparison.

You are really weird bird. You are almost in every possible thread telling how support sucks and then you embrace android hacks.

Are you basically trying to say that what you need is google's application pack on n900? Or what are you missing on n900 that you get from android hacks?

Do android hacks change how android phones phone application work?
 

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stlpaul is offline stlpaul
2010-09-22 , 04:31
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#56
Originally Posted by Loggy1948 View Post
I have an n900. I am not happy with it - basically the user experience sucks. I got it because it is a real computer under the hood but whoever designed the interface should take a look at how Apple do it - one phone, one system that people can use. Nokia seem to have 100 phones all doing something similar but not the same. It is chaos and messy and a complete waste of my time.
I'm not sure I understand this complaint. What do Nokia's other phones have to do with how the N900 works? Maybe you purchased it without ever having seen or used one (as I did) and were expecting something more similar to Symbian. Coming from N95 there were definitely things I missed, especially being able to move menu items and create subfolders etc. (which has now been solved multiple ways by the Maemo community)

Originally Posted by Loggy1948 View Post
The N900 is unreadable white on black rather than black on white,
That's funny because I have the opposite opinion. I change my color scheme on every computer/device I work with to have a dark background & light text. I find a white screen to be blinding and it gives me a headache. I don't know how people who write or code all day on a white editor can do it.

In either case, N900 has themes and you can change the colors to be anything you want. (Maybe there are some applications that ignore the system color scheme but that's a bug in those applications and not the N900 itself)

Originally Posted by Loggy1948 View Post
has awful addressbook navigation, horrible skins, confusing multiplicity of web source (nokia forums, ovi, maemo etc etc) etc etc. Apps should be just that not a lazy way of not completing the job properly.
Not sure if I understand your specific complaints here.

The addressbook is beautifully simple -- I don't even need to open it. Want to pull up John Doe's info? Just start typing his name on the desktop and voila. There he is.

I'm pretty sure there's more than 1 website about iPhones too. I don't see that as a problem.

Originally Posted by Loggy1948 View Post
I am used to installing different OSs on computers and one of the saving graces of the N900 is to be able to ssh into my servers. But that's about all. See http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/fo...643#post777643
I imagine any phone out there has an SSH app, so that's certainly not a "killer app" on the N900. I used to SSH on my N95 all the time using PuTTY.

In the post that you linked, you've raised some of the same concerns that you did here. I've already addressed the color scheme.

The accidental entry into edit mode can be annoying. If you ever hold your finger/stylus on the screen it'll go into the edit mode. If you tap, it doesn't. However, when the phone is "bogged down" it often misinterprets a tap as a long-press. This happens to me most often on the menu but quite regularly on the desktop, too. I've never accidentally deleted anything, though.

As far as the address book, as I mentioned above you can type a name and it will jump to it. The same trick works in the App Manager. I don't know what other phones you've used previously so I can't compare it to whatever you're used to. I do agree that in most places where lots of scrolling is required there could be some UI improvements to help speed it up (scrollbars and hints, as you suggested, such as showing the letter of the alphabet you would scroll to)

Flight mode is there, it seems you misunderstood the operation of the power button. It is a multi-function button, if you tap it once while the phone is unlocked it will bring up a menu which includes "offline mode". If you double-tap it, it will lock the phone . If you tap it once while the phone is locked, it will present you with the unlocking screen. If you hold it down, it will poweroff the device.

Satnav uses data if you have assisted GPS enabled. Assisted GPS means it uses the internet to look up the cellular towers to which you are connected and pulls their location from an online database. If you disable that, you should be able to use it without a data connection.

Ovi store has been a disaster, most would agree there. However, your vision of what kind of things should or should not be included in an app store is not really relevant. Last time I saw apple app store or android market they were mostly full of ridiculous and useless crap.

As far as your virtual keyboard not appearing in the google search box -- which google search box are you talking about? And do you have the virtual keyboard enabled, does it work in other places? And I don't understand what you mean about needing to open the keyboard in order to press the send button on an SMS. I haven't encountered either of these problems, at least.

Originally Posted by Loggy1948 View Post
Before I bin it and go for an Android native system, is there any alternative where the unit still works as a phone, 3G, wifi, bluetooth, camera, music etc plus the missing things like mms? Is there any one of these systems that is near to this target? I e xpect it will blow and guarantee with Voda but otherwise it will blow my fuse.
Install fMMS and you'll have your MMS. N900 already has phone, 3G, wifi, bluetooth, camera and music player. What other things are you missing?

Originally Posted by Loggy1948 View Post
Trouble is I was particularly stupid and got two n900s. But for some reason, even though she hankers after an iPhone, my better half is not as pissed off as I am....
She sounds like a wise person

Originally Posted by Loggy1948 View Post
Maybe Nokia should stick to hardware and make the software properly open source.
If it were open source would you be prepared to address the problems you have? Because much of the software on your N900 is open source already. Go ahead and build a custom hildon-desktop that doesn't go into edit mode, make a contacts app that has behaves the way you'd like it. I'll be happy to try them out if you need a tester.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to address each of your points/questions. As many of them are matters of opinion I've responded with my own opinion. You've obviously tried to tough it out and the N900 just isn't "doing it" for you. I can understand that.

I've personally found the user interface on N900/Maemo5 to be heads and shoulders above that of iPhone or Android. To me, using either of those feels more like a smartphone, while N900 feels more like a desktop computer. To me, feeling like a smartphone is a bad thing. N900 has ruined me, no other phones are any good in comparison. That's how I feel about it, anyway. Yes, N900 has many, many flaws, and virtually no commercial software support, but having a linux computer in my phone is a greater advantage than any of the disadvantages, to me.

To answer the title question: Is there any real alternative? In the end it sounds like you simply don't care for the N900 for various reasons and there's nothing wrong with that, to each his own. I think just about any other modern smartphone would probably give you more satisfaction based on the complaints/problems you've had with N900.

If you could avoid buying a phone on contract that would help you avoid being stuck with one you don't like. But hindsight is 20/20 Good luck.
 

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slender is offline slender
2010-09-22 , 04:32
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#57
Originally Posted by AMLJ View Post
Well, Ubuntu always sucks :lol:

Why do you try Mint, Ubuntu, etc. but not the real thing, Debian?

I recommend you try that one, both on your N900 and your PC. Just a suggestion.
I have ended up using pclos. Maybe when it explodes i try something else but i just love speed. Arch linux is probably too demanding for me.
 
gerbick
2010-09-22 , 04:52
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#58
Originally Posted by slender View Post
What do you need? I don't quite understand your comparison.
Ok. As it stands, if you put the upcoming MeeGo build onto your N900, you will not be able to receive phone calls, make phone calls, et al. Last I checked, the N900 has those capabilities.

To upgrade and lose that functionality makes zero sense.

You are really weird bird. You are almost in every possible thread telling how support sucks and then you embrace android hacks.
Because I never lost any functionality with any hack I employed on my Android phone. Changed the file system, I received a phone call once I was done doing that. Changed the launcher, I made a phone call after that. Switch from the JF6 to the JH3 firmware... and it still worked, installed, viewed the web and I lost zero functionality.

You cannot say the exact, 100% same for the N900. If you switch to Debian, you lose the ability to make phone calls fully. Or you lose Flash. Switch to Nitdroid, you gain Flash 10.1, but they've yet to get phone calls (but that's RIGHT around the corner).

What's so ****ing weird about that? I buy a phone, I want to receive a phone call on it. I actually talk to people.

Are you basically trying to say that what you need is google's application pack on n900? Or what are you missing on n900 that you get from android hacks?
*facepalm*

Heck no. Where did that come from!?

Do android hacks change how android phones phone application work?
Not at all. And that's the point. If I switch to the JF7 firmware (and I might) I lose nothing. If I switch to other firmwares, I lose no functionality.

Can the same be said about the N900?
 

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slender is offline slender
2010-09-22 , 05:03
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#59
I'm still baffled.

firstly you are talking different hacked versions (remember that they are hacked) of original os so of course phone works.

Are you really comparing different OSes on how same OS but hacked works? What do you want to hack? What kind of hacks from android you would like to see on Maemo?

My head hurts when I try to understand your point. Sorry
Last edited by slender; 2010-09-22 at 09:22.
 
gerbick
2010-09-22 , 05:07
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#60
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
So does MeeGo.. with respect to intel based netbooks. MeeGo also has support for the N900 out-of-box and the Intel Moorestown.
Ah, but I'm talking about the N900 only. I know that Moblin... I mean MeeGo for Intel supports a broad range of devices. I don't think that Maemo, I mean MeeGo for handsets does. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct it.

They are right now.. every week.. with every weekly build of MeeGo. At least until MeeGo is able to distribute them directly.
But until those weekly builds are fully making and receiving phone calls, your N900 will be rendered into a UI/UX showcase that looks cool but cannot do much more than show it's a proof of concept for a soon to be released OS.

While I can do that with my N900 since that's not my full-time phone whilst I'm in the US, I cannot do that while I'm on travel when it switches to my main phone.

Simply stated, no phone calls can be either received or made, it's 100% useless to me.

This isn't so much the N900 not being a computer as it is the community hasn't successfully put something together yet.
But this community insists on calling it a computer when... I fear that it is not. It's computer-like, but not a full-blown computer. I mean, I remember when my father used to call my HP 48GX a "computer" and I kept correcting him with saying "No. It's a calculator" and he'd go "What's the difference?" - big difference to me.

Maybe because those that are capable actually find their phones quite useful as is. The small closed parts we want to change we change directly (hildon-desktop modifications, FMTXd, etc.)
Based on the responses in this forum, I'm seriously doubting that folks are using the N900 as a phone at all for the most part.

So really one could argue there is less "maemo" builds for the N900 as there are Android builds for Droid phones because.. well.. we don't need them
Or... there are less Maemo builds because the builds have yet to be packaged and made available to the public. There are a ton of fixes that have yet to be released yet. Same is true for Diablo; but the Community SSU is changing that. The lack of a SSU for Fremantle is somewhat frustrating and should be fixed.

Phone calls will be a requirement.
STSKeeps has stated that they've worked that out somewhat, so I'm hopeful there.

Flash however is entirely out of the question for MeeGo. Ubuntu does not offer flash, you have to install it.
But it is installable... that's a key difference.

So in this case, you are squarely facing Adobe on whether you'll get it or not.
Actually, there's more than a few things that I want... but to have it now, lose it on an upgrade... I don't call that an upgrade. That's a huge compromise. Upgrades are supposed to add to the experience, not take away.

If they make an ARM port for MeeGo - you'll see it. If not .. maybe someone will get the Android one to work - but none of this can be blamed on the N900, or MeeGo.
I'm not blaming MeeGo for that. I lived through the Hacker Editions that didn't have Flash... and to be honest, I didn't like it one bit and absolutely refuse to do that again.

Your moob love is noted...

and feared.
Last edited by gerbick; 2010-09-22 at 05:14.
 

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