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smoku is offline smoku
2011-02-19 , 12:52
Posts: 1,716 | Thanked: 3,007 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Warsaw, Poland
#391
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
Alright, on that I can agree with you. If pure true free market existed, I might support it. But i don't believe it does and ever will.
Fine.
Just stop saying that Free Market doesn't work.

We never tried it, so we don't actually know whether it works.

But analyses of different attempts on introducing free market practices lead to the conclusion that it should work.
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attila77 is offline attila77
2011-02-19 , 12:58
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#392
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
If the artist really wanted to share his creation, he wouldn't charge for it. Money is not a motivator, and real talent WILL get recognized no matter the circustances.
Van Gogh, Serat, Kafka, Poe, Gaugin, El Greco, Bach, Keats, Thoreau and many others (would have) beg(ged) to differ.
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IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-19 , 13:02
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#393
Originally Posted by slender View Post
"We have freee market, We have free market!", "No! You have cartel where corporations spend _huge_ amount of money to lobby their interest". Money goes to share holders compared to government. There is difference there that anyone can join the "party" by buying stocks, but still itīs in a way same kind of situation.
Thank you!

Originally Posted by smoku View Post
Fine.
Just stop saying that Free Market doesn't work.

We never tried it, so we don't actually know whether it works.

But analyses of different attempts on introducing free market practices lead to the conclusion that it should work.
I'm sorry but I can't do that. I'm not sure of which analyses you are refering to, but in the end, it all comes down to a monetary system, and everything within that system will fail. You know why? One word: ethics. It does not, but more importantly cannot, exist within a monetary system. Is it financially suicide to be ethical. If you make and sell lamps for exemple, in your own store, and there's another store in front of yours that also sells lamps but better than yours, you cannot tell your customers: "My lamps are 20$, the same price as my competitor, but you know what? His lamps are actually more durable, illuminate more and take less energy than mines". You cannot trust anybody in a monetary system. Free market or not, it shouldn't matter.
 
IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-19 , 13:07
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#394
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
Van Gogh, Serat, Kafka, Poe, Gaugin, El Greco, Bach, Keats, Thoreau and many others (would have) beg(ged) to differ.
How would you know? Who are you to be able to tell what was behind their creativity? I admit I am not familiar with these artist's background and personal life, but I stick to my point, that a great artist should not be motivated by money, or he shouldn't be descrived as an artist. They do it because they love it, and they know they bring a difference aspect/perspective/point of view to their existing worlds.
 
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2011-02-19 , 14:09
Posts: 1,716 | Thanked: 3,007 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Warsaw, Poland
#395
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
I'm sorry but I can't do that. I'm not sure of which analyses you are refering to, but in the end, it all comes down to a monetary system, and everything within that system will fail.
1. Which monetary system are you referring to?
Do you know that there is more than one monetary system?

2. Free Market is about voluntary exchange of goods. You can have it without monetary system in use at all.

3. And your ethics example... If you try broadening your perspective and think about it again, you will see how deeply flawed it is.
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Last edited by smoku; 2011-02-19 at 14:15.
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2011-02-19 , 14:15
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#396
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
How would you know? Who are you to be able to tell what was behind their creativity? I admit I am not familiar with these artist's background and personal life, but I stick to my point, that a great artist should not be motivated by money, or he shouldn't be descrived as an artist. They do it because they love it, and they know they bring a difference aspect/perspective/point of view to their existing worlds.
The people I mentioned above did exactly that. They also had to resort to 'real jobs' or live on loans/help from friends and family to be able to fuel their passion and mostly died in poverty and/or lone and forgotten. I wonder how many *acclaimed* artists would have remained unknown had they not decided to monetize on their work, and how many DID make that choice, only for the general public never to became aware of them.

On an unrelated note - the Gaiman link is tangential - he's not saying piracy is justified, he's saying targeted on-line distribution can be used as a business model. Those are very different things.
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smoku's Avatar
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2011-02-19 , 14:24
Posts: 1,716 | Thanked: 3,007 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Warsaw, Poland
#397
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
Van Gogh, Serat, Kafka, Poe, Gaugin, El Greco, Bach, Keats, Thoreau and many others (would have) beg(ged) to differ.
Who are these people? (wink)
Is it possible that they pursued a life path that was no interest in other people lives, so they did not see any reason to provide for these so called artists?

Nature does not provide free meal. So do people.

Ergo: You either do some portraits, concerts, speeches, etc. to fund your experiments in art, or find a wealthy patron that fancies collecting spurs of your "ingenuity".

One cannot expect the community to provide for him, just because he called oneself "an artist".
Otherwise I will make sitting on my arse an art. ;P
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Last edited by smoku; 2011-02-19 at 14:38.
 
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ysss is offline ysss
2011-02-19 , 14:34
Posts: 4,384 | Thanked: 5,524 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
#398
Isaac, you've made so many inaccurate assumptions and arrived on erroneous conclusions due to it.

Look up artist's name + patron.

Almost all the great ones have em.
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IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-19 , 14:42
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#399
Originally Posted by smoku View Post
1. Which monetary system are you referring to?
Do you know that there is more than one monetary system?

2. Free Market is about voluntary exchange of goods. You can have it without monetary system in use at all.

3. And your ethics example... If you try broadening your perspective and think about it again, you will see how deeply flawed it is.
1. There is only one monetary system in existence in our current world. I hope you don't mean there are different currencies... As defned: "A monetary system is anything that is accepted as a standard of value and measure of wealth in a particular region." I suggest you take a look at the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_system
As you would understand there are technically only two "types" of monetary system, as one has been abolish many many years ago.

2. Would I be mistaken if I think you are making reference to Free Trade? If that the case then you must be talking about Barter. Again, take a look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter

3. If you could take two minutes of your time (which I would personally appreciate), this is what I meant to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W_P_30b9jY

I know I copy a lot of links but I just don't feel like writing a book here, lol.
 
IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-19 , 14:47
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#400
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
Isaac, you've made so many inaccurate assumptions and arrived on erroneous conclusions due to it.

Look up artist's name + patron.

Almost all the great ones have em.
From a person that actually believes we are in a free market society and that competition is good, your words are of no value to me and I hope that one day you will realise how wrong you are. I strongly recommend starting by taking a look at the Zeitgeist movies, broaden your horizons a little bit.
Last edited by IsaacDFP; 2011-02-19 at 15:00.
 
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