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redenisc is offline redenisc
2009-11-04 , 11:32
Posts: 21 | Thanked: 29 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Espoo, Finland
#91
Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
One of the tenets of open source is to not do the same work twice. VLC reinvented the wheel instead of improving the proven and working gstreamer.They provided a great app experience, but at the expense of the OS's growth. They could've upgraded or added to gstreamer, but they kept the codecs closed only for VLC's usage.
VideoLAN project, started 1996, open-sourced early 2000, fully functional at that time (though no Windows support at that time).
gstreamer project started from scratch early 2000.
Now tell me who's reinventing the wheel again?

Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
Joppu wants all apps to work WITH the development previous devs have worked hard on to make it better. He is totally against splintering apps and doing work twice.
So why is he supporting (s)mplayer which is not using gstreamer either, is it?

Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
Had VLC done things right, most apps would work well, and it'd be all about the best interface. As they've done it, its the workability of the app that is its calling card, when they could've easily added them to gstreamer instead to improve the video experience on Linux across the board. It is a selfish move by VideoLan, but not a cardinal sin.
VLC was developped when gstreamer DID NOT EXIST. How the heck were the then developers supposed to contribute to a non-existent project? If there is NIH syndrome, it affects the gstreamer folks at least as badly as the VideoLAN project. They could have built and improved on top of pre-existing FFmpeg and/or VideoLAN instead. They decided to go their own way. That's fine. Contrary to you, I believe mono-culture would do OSS a disservice anyway.
 
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2009-11-04 , 12:11
Posts: 780 | Thanked: 855 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ Helsinki, Finland
#92
Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
@ Jack6428, let me sort of stick up for joppu on this one, because I see where he's coming from. I'll explain his stance in a nutshell, so let me know, joppu, if I'm offbase.
Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
Joppu wants all apps to work WITH the development previous devs have worked hard on to make it better. He is totally against splintering apps and doing work twice. I see his point, and look at VLC totally differently now. He's made a valid point, and we need to really look at how we choose and use code with the betterment of the OS in mind.
Don't confuse me with that other guy that was talking about the lack of the modularity.

Originally Posted by range View Post
b) mplayer (which joppu favors) is even less modular than vlc (if modularity is the issue at hand).
What modularity? I have not ever talked anything about modularity!

Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
Thanks for clearing that up, range. I officially learned alot in that post. Now I have to say this:

Why ARE you tripping, then, joppu?! I don't see why.
Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
@ f(x),
I'm not judging. I like VLC, and its my preferred player. I just tried to see from joppu's perspective, but after getting the info from range, joppu's stance has little merit. I wonder why he feels the way he does?
The core of the problem is, that everyone says "ololol vlc plays everything, its so good, everyone should get it since its so awsome" but in real life it is mediocre at the best. I just despise the way everyone is hyping up the software that is just fundamentally so crappy.

Originally Posted by f(x) View Post
I think VLC killed his dog :P
Bravo!

Originally Posted by range View Post
Because he doesn't like VLC - which is totally fine. I don't like xine (another multimedia solution with its own set of libs) either. But yeah, he's a tad too vocal with it, IMHO
Correct.

Originally Posted by Jack6428 View Post
joppu, i find your hate of VLC and overall negativity on these boards in every topic funny to say, at least, sad as well.
Uhhh, okay? Can you point out an example of a thread where I'm being so "negative".

Originally Posted by Jack6428 View Post
VLC is the best "out of the box" player out there (media player classic is ok too though).
How it's the best? Have you ever even used (S)MPlayer?

Media Player Classic indeed is one of the best media playback solutions in Windows environment.

Originally Posted by Jack6428 View Post
I really dont understand your problems. Pixelation/artifacts can happen even on a quad-core if the file is badly encoded or is not encoded in the "common" way.
Is VLC way the "common" way? Like how everyone has to make specific version of their HTML site for Internet Explorer 5 just because it fail miserably with standards?

Originally Posted by Jack6428 View Post
It happens, its normal, nothing is perfect, ever, face it
Normal for you, since you use VLC.

Originally Posted by Jack6428 View Post
And mind I say it happens only with MKV files, because they are simply more advanced with more features with a wider range of algorhytm possibilities.
Here you are just proving your ignorance, .mkv is the container, not a video format. You are probably referring to h.264 encoded video here.

Originally Posted by Jack6428 View Post
Your attitude "i know best" is getting old.
Yes, naturally you know everything so much better than me.
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redenisc is offline redenisc
2009-11-04 , 13:16
Posts: 21 | Thanked: 29 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Espoo, Finland
#93
Originally Posted by joppu View Post
Is VLC way the "common" way?
I have no accurate statistics, but I believe mplayer to be the most popular media player on Linux. OTOH, gstreamer would most probably claim to be "the common way" for being endorsed by FreeDesktop and quite a bunch of distros (including Maemo in fact).

Originally Posted by joppu View Post
Like how everyone has to make specific version of their HTML site for Internet Explorer 5 just because it fail miserably with standards?
The implication that VLC is not obedient to standards is offensive. VLC receives a lot of invalid bug reports to support broken files from stupid embedded devices or random crappy FFmpeg-on-Windows front-ends. It is also well-known to be rather strict about properly formatted MPEG streams or SDP syntax for instance.

But obviously, you only care about Matroska. Matroska is a fine format, doubtlessly the best in terms of features coverage. But it is so damn complicated that it's easy for authoring software to screw it up, difficult to fully support on the read side. That said, VLC reads iMKV quite fine if you build the native libmatroska plugin. If however you rely on FFmpeg through VLC, then it sucks, so it depends on your VLC package.

As for those subtitle formats you're complaining, the biggest problem has been crappy support for upstream libraries. Lets face it, the maintenance history of libass is a mess. To make things worse, VLC did not see a proper release for 2 years between 0.8.6 and 0.9.2. Comparing with (s)mplayer is unfair if you use the bleeding edge SVN mplayer/FFmpeg version with the official VLC release. If you really want to compare properly, use bleeding edge master branches for both of them.
 

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joppu is offline joppu
2009-11-04 , 13:33
Posts: 780 | Thanked: 855 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ Helsinki, Finland
#94
Originally Posted by redenisc View Post
I have no accurate statistics, but I believe mplayer to be the most popular media player on Linux. OTOH, gstreamer would most probably claim to be "the common way" for being endorsed by FreeDesktop and quite a bunch of distros (including Maemo in fact).
Yes, gstreamer offers an excellent framework but the performance leaves a bit to be desired.

Originally Posted by redenisc View Post
The implication that VLC is not obedient to standards is offensive. VLC receives a lot of invalid bug reports to support broken files from stupid embedded devices or random crappy FFmpeg-on-Windows front-ends. It is also well-known to be rather strict about properly formatted MPEG streams or SDP syntax for instance.
I still don't get it, why does it then still cause the artifact mess when jumping in time and dropping frames? Or is it a feature of the player itself?

Originally Posted by redenisc View Post
As for those subtitle formats you're complaining, the biggest problem has been crappy support for upstream libraries. Lets face it, the maintenance history of libass is a mess. To make things worse, VLC did not see a proper release for 2 years between 0.8.6 and 0.9.2.
Yes, it's always the upstream. How come FFDSHOW on windows and MPlayer have had the proper subtitle support for longer? Are they using a different library or what?

Originally Posted by redenisc View Post
Comparing with (s)mplayer is unfair if you use the bleeding edge SVN mplayer/FFmpeg version with the official VLC release. If you really want to compare properly, use bleeding edge master branches for both of them.
It's not my fault that the SMPlayer installer installs the latest SVN of MPlayer and the official VLC installer installs this "outdated" version.
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f(x) is offline f(x)
2009-11-04 , 14:32
Posts: 98 | Thanked: 26 times | Joined on Sep 2009
#95
@joppu:
You know that I was joking about vlc/dog. Anyway, seriously it is stupid to say VLC is the best or X is the best.
You know that you are getting pissed of from a software? (Something that isn't even real!)

You don't like VLC its ok, use something else.
Here (I am also having with it mplayer,xine , real player)
I tends to run everything on VLC & When some things don't work I try mplayer/xine (Currently available only on my old pc's as I stopped using it)

joppu: could you please stop repeating what you are saying over and over in the same thread?


We got your points:

1- Joppu don't like VLC
2- Joppu won't mind using VLC if it runs fine and fits his need
3- Joppu prefer other players than VLC
4- Joppu wants a better subtitle player
5- Joppu might sacrifice a player into anther for performance
6- Joppu is a free person that he can use any software for his need like everyone else
7- Joppu lists could go forever...
...

Kindly, it is really enough. if you like to discuss this topic again (lets wait till VLC v2)
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redenisc is offline redenisc
2009-11-04 , 14:47
Posts: 21 | Thanked: 29 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Espoo, Finland
#96
Originally Posted by joppu View Post
I still don't get it, why does it then still cause the artifact mess when jumping in time and dropping frames? Or is it a feature of the player itself?
This has nothing to do with following standards. It has everything to do with looking for the nearest key frame.

Originally Posted by joppu View Post
It's not my fault that the SMPlayer installer installs the latest SVN of MPlayer and the official VLC installer installs this "outdated" version.
It's open-source, you can check it out yourself and compile. Besides, VLC has nightly builds for MacOS, Windows, Debian and Ubuntu to my knowledge.

Anyway, if you're happy with smplayer, good for you. That does not mean EVERY BODY else should use smplayer.
 
Ptole is offline Ptole
2009-11-04 , 15:17
Posts: 1 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Nov 2009
#97
Joppu just thought that VLC insulted him personally when his anime went all messy, and now he has eternal grudge against it, and of course, everyone who uses VLC.

If someone likes to use VLC, then let him do so. It's none of your business what media player somebody uses. Your actions resembel to the witch-hunts in the 16th century :/
 
zaheerm is offline zaheerm
2009-11-04 , 15:50
Posts: 168 | Thanked: 265 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ London, UK
#98
Originally Posted by redenisc View Post
VideoLAN project, started 1996, open-sourced early 2000, fully functional at that time (though no Windows support at that time).
gstreamer project started from scratch early 2000.
GStreamer was first made public in 1999, we celebrated our 10 year anniversary this year. Citation: GStreamer 0.0.9 released! 1999-10-31 from http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/news/

Regardless it is good to have multiple projects that work on similar things. We even collaborate a little. I spoke with some VLC guys at GSoC Mentor summit last week and we talked about further collaboration on stuff like BluRay support.
 

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qole is offline qole
2009-11-04 , 19:15
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#99
I love it when we get developers from various projects in a thread all talking about finding the nearest keyframe and collaborating on BluRay support.

But redenisc, you have to remember that this is primarily a user forum, so people are going to click on the official installer on the web page, not download the source and compile the latest svn with the native libmatroska plugin. If you want users to have access to bleeding edge versions of the app, you have to provide a not-too-difficult way for them to download packaged binaries of these versions.

I like the gstreamer backend too, I just don't understand why the maemo media player constantly says "format not supported" on standard XviD / mp3 AVIs when the same video plays fine in VLC or mplayer. Doesn't it use the standard ffmpeg decoders? Is this a problem of the media player or the gstreamer plugins? Could we get custom gstreamer plugins for Maemo that add support for all ffmpeg-supported codecs?
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qole is offline qole
2009-11-04 , 19:19
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#100
This is another question, so I'll ask it in another post.

What is the command line way to set up an http wmv stream from /dev/video0? What about also sending a stream to the screen as well?

Is there also a way to run VLC from the command line, and when it is finished playing the thing you asked it to play, it quits rather than staying in VLC?

If I could get a command line, I could even package it up like the old "Peekaboo" project for the NITs...
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