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2010-06-02
, 21:48
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#92
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FWIW, Qgil,
I mainly blame Nokia executives here, not you personally (unless you're the fellow making the decisions).
There's not a lot of reason to put on a defensive posture. I think most of us are trying to remain constructive with criticism but even when it isn't "constructive," you should know that one expression of customer experience (positive and negative) here is likely to have many more who aren't part of the forums and that can be valuable as well.
I mainly blame Nokia executives here, not you personally (unless you're the fellow making the decisions).
There's not a lot of reason to put on a defensive posture. I think most of us are trying to remain constructive with criticism but even when it isn't "constructive," you should know that one expression of customer experience (positive and negative) here is likely to have many more who aren't part of the forums and that can be valuable as well.
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2010-06-02
, 21:55
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#93
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Originally Posted by Texrat
Potential IP landmines? Landmines that lawyers for FSF haven't caught? If there's a potential IP landmine to be had, why go out and trash on OGG and deny it to the customers instead of contacting the FSF lawyers and find an amicable way to resolve the license or to get an assurance that there isn't a problem?
My understanding has been that the problems with OGG stem from potential IP land mines. Am I wrong?
As for Pandora, I'm mystified by your comment. I can't see how it wouldn't have much to do with the subject...
I, too, am mystified by your argument about Pandora. How would encrypted Pandora closed-source client software be anything like the gateway to hardware like a closed-source driver or architecture like the BRM?
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2010-06-02
, 21:56
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Posts: 1,667 |
Thanked: 561 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#94
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Originally Posted by danramos
This Pandora
Potential IP landmines? Landmines that lawyers for FSF haven't caught? If there's a potential IP landmine to be had, why go out and trash on OGG and deny it to the customers instead of contacting the FSF lawyers and find an amicable way to resolve the license or to get an assurance that there isn't a problem?
I, too, am mystified by your argument about Pandora. How would encrypted Pandora closed-source client software be anything like the gateway to hardware like a closed-source driver or architecture like the BRM?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_%28console%29
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2010-06-02
, 22:01
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#95
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Originally Posted by nosa101
DOH!
This Pandora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_%28console%29
My bad. In my mind, that thing was already dead and forgotten.
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2010-06-02
, 22:09
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Posts: n/a |
Thanked: 0 times |
Joined on
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#96
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I think you two are mixing up Pandora Music versus Pandora the console.
As far as it goes, the whole OGG "submarine patents" that are waiting for it need to have the blame placed directly where it belongs... MPEG-LA. Find an alternative - I know that Google can't be the only one that can do that.
Now back to topic... I'm not seeing how "more or less" answers a question. That just reeks of marketing speak. Ask direct questions and there's no answers... just more smoke screens. I can't give Nokia my faith any longer.
They better be glad I'm patient. But it doesn't mean I won't ask questions.
As far as it goes, the whole OGG "submarine patents" that are waiting for it need to have the blame placed directly where it belongs... MPEG-LA. Find an alternative - I know that Google can't be the only one that can do that.
Now back to topic... I'm not seeing how "more or less" answers a question. That just reeks of marketing speak. Ask direct questions and there's no answers... just more smoke screens. I can't give Nokia my faith any longer.
They better be glad I'm patient. But it doesn't mean I won't ask questions.
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2010-06-03
, 01:50
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Posts: 302 |
Thanked: 254 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
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#97
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Originally Posted by zehjotkah
Somehow I'm quite glad to hear this.
Novell is cooperating with Intel to make their own derivate on top of MeeGo called Suse MeeGo (previously known as Suse Moblin).
There should be Netbooks with preinstalled Suse MeeGo available this year.
Source (german): http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldu...s-1013602.html
Maemo's worst downside was always the fact that the end user (community) had to depend to Nokia - a hardware vendor - on the continued support and maintenance of the platform. Obviously it was always in Nokia's interest to obsolete (intentionally or through neglect) platform versions running on devices that had already been sold!
Joining forces with Intel (which has reputation for rather solid OSS support) should somewhat extende the scope of that legacy support, but Intel still prefers to shovel out new hardware to replace the already sold...
Novell's SUSE on the other hand represents pure software development, maintenance and support, besides bringing in some valuable resources and skills to the soft side of user experience.
I'm kind of curious to see how these parties coordinate their development efforts, but after abandoning the Debian "universe", I'd consider Novell's presence (with their repos and timely porting tradition) as the next best thing for Mae... MeeGo.
Last edited by Peet; 2010-06-03 at 05:40. Reason: speeling
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2010-06-03
, 02:16
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Posts: 466 |
Thanked: 418 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
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#98
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Originally Posted by Peet
My biggest problem with this is the school of thought that thinks "Oh, there are too many Linux distributions, why don't we just have one so people are not confused! Oh, are we programming for a Linux environment, or Ubuntu, or Suse or.... "
Somehow I quite glad to hear this.
Maemo's worst downside was always the fact that the end user (community) had to depend to Nokia - a hardware vendor - on the continued support and maintenance of the platform. Obviously it was always in Nokia's interest to obsolete (intentionally or through neglect) platform versions running on devices that had already been sold!
Joining forces with Intel (which has reputation for rather solid OSS support) should somewhat extende the scope of that legacy support, but Intel still prefers to shovel out new hardware to replace the already sold...
Novell's SUSE on the other hand represents pure software development, maintenance and support, besides bringing in some valuable resources and skills to the soft side of user experience.
I'm kind of curious to see how these parties coordinate their development efforts, but after abandoning the Debian "universe", I'd consider Novell's presence (with their repos and timely porting tradition) as the next best thing for Mae... MeeGo.
Will this turn into a "Well, we have this awesome new app for SuSE MeeGo!" "Well, I'm running Fedora MeeGo, what do you have for me?" "Oh, uhm... sorry, you'll have to wait 'til your distribution re-packages the source code." "But, your source is closed!" "Oh, so it is. Well, tough titties for you, fish face!" Then of course a battle will ensue. "We should be fighting together!" "We are!"
Now if MeeGo's ONLY difference is the UI that is attached to the specific device / variation on it, that's fine. Just keep everything under the skin the same.
This is one of the reasons many people think that commercial software doesn't come to Linux. Too many distributions that say "Hey, your crap isn't compatible with our version of glibc and .deb/.rpm"
Android has kind of the opposite problem, too many hardware vendors, so not all devices are created equally. Not to mention the Market Place that doesn't have a CliQ, Nexus One, etc section. You basically have to read comments and they'll say "oh, this doesn't work on X phone because of Y"
I will say that as soon as MeeGo has a UI, I'll be slapping it on my N900
slaapliedje
Edit: to make it clear, I don't really buy the school of thought represented above. I figure more the merrier!
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2010-06-03
, 04:00
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Posts: 60 |
Thanked: 144 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
@ Philadelphia
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#99
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Considering the fact that the only closed components (rather than applications) are a video driver that Nokia doesn't control the license of (it belongs to SGX) and the BME daemon, I don't know where all this confusion comes from.
Every other N900 driver MeeGo uses is not just open source in the sense of having the source available, the kernel drivers are also either committed or being committed to the linux kernel upstream. For one thing, this means that all future releases would support the same hardware devices, for no extra effort, and so would any Linux distribution that uses a kernel after those drivers were committed to the source.
As for different MeeGo images (SUSE MeeGo would be a MeeGo image), for those who don't catch slaapliedje's tone, the MeeGo approach means that any program written for MeeGo would work on any instance of MeeGo.
As MeeGo is a fully functional system by itself, there isn't a necessity to add more stack elements and APIs, but it is open to any such additions. If a program uses one of these additional API's, obviously you would need to have that API as well. Often this would involve other open source technologies, but a good example of how proprietary code can play nice with MeeGo would be something like the OVI API, that Nokia would add in its MeeGo releases, for OVI Store maybe Music store of some kind, etc.
Every other N900 driver MeeGo uses is not just open source in the sense of having the source available, the kernel drivers are also either committed or being committed to the linux kernel upstream. For one thing, this means that all future releases would support the same hardware devices, for no extra effort, and so would any Linux distribution that uses a kernel after those drivers were committed to the source.
As for different MeeGo images (SUSE MeeGo would be a MeeGo image), for those who don't catch slaapliedje's tone, the MeeGo approach means that any program written for MeeGo would work on any instance of MeeGo.
As MeeGo is a fully functional system by itself, there isn't a necessity to add more stack elements and APIs, but it is open to any such additions. If a program uses one of these additional API's, obviously you would need to have that API as well. Often this would involve other open source technologies, but a good example of how proprietary code can play nice with MeeGo would be something like the OVI API, that Nokia would add in its MeeGo releases, for OVI Store maybe Music store of some kind, etc.
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2010-06-03
, 04:24
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Posts: 466 |
Thanked: 418 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
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#100
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Originally Posted by flailingmonkey
Yeah, I'm pretty much hoping it ends up being like this;
Considering the fact that the only closed components (rather than applications) are a video driver that Nokia doesn't control the license of (it belongs to SGX) and the BME daemon, I don't know where all this confusion comes from.
Every other N900 driver MeeGo uses is not just open source in the sense of having the source available, the kernel drivers are also either committed or being committed to the linux kernel upstream. For one thing, this means that all future releases would support the same hardware devices, for no extra effort, and so would any Linux distribution that uses a kernel after those drivers were committed to the source.
As for different MeeGo images (SUSE MeeGo would be a MeeGo image), for those who don't catch slaapliedje's tone, the MeeGo approach means that any program written for MeeGo would work on any instance of MeeGo.
As MeeGo is a fully functional system by itself, there isn't a necessity to add more stack elements and APIs, but it is open to any such additions. If a program uses one of these additional API's, obviously you would need to have that API as well. Often this would involve other open source technologies, but a good example of how proprietary code can play nice with MeeGo would be something like the OVI API, that Nokia would add in its MeeGo releases, for OVI Store maybe Music store of some kind, etc.
Linux Kernel (handling device drivers, etc.)
MeeGo Stack (including yum/RPM, Qt, Gtk+(as a side note, multitouch now added to 3.x)
Custom UI.
That should pretty much be what all MeeGo 'distros' should be. Much like how Ubuntu has Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, etc. All with the same backend, but different user interfaces. I only cringe when I hear SuSE MeeGo, because they, out of all of the other RPM based distributions are the worse offenders of the "Hey, we'll take your base package manager and configure our packages so they don't work or are a pain in the arse to get to work on any distro but ours!"
It's better now... but back in the day before Novell owned them... it was positively a nightmare, and Suse didn't even give version numbers in packages then... they would have something like gcc.rpm as a package.
Anyhow, I'm looking forward to what MeeGo brings to the scene. If it truly succeeds to be a universal mobile OS (and maybe not so mobile?) and starts to get a lot of commercial support (from the likes of EA as some have said) then it would truly do a lot for the Linux community at large. The real question is how 'linuxy' will MeeGo be? I hope it's open / compatible enough with other distros so that a simple alien or rpm -Uvh or whatever will let a x86 or even ARM native commercial app be installed on a non-MeeGo distro.
slaapliedje
Edit: lousy typos.
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As for Pandora, I'm mystified by your comment. I can't see how it wouldn't have much to do with the subject...
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