To me the shift has already begun from the Linux hacker device to the Nokia phone. Now all the new phone people are dealing with the same issues we have been complaining about for years.

Are we beta testers? Get a free device you might not care, but if pay for one, and feel like you got took, you might be mad.

The people in this community will love it, the new people coming into this community may or may not love it.

I see nothing new in the posts about patches, and bugs and obstinate mad people. It's been happening for many years here, now there are MANY more people, so MANY more complaints are going to happen.

Maemo is Maemo, these issues are not new, nor are they going away. This community has survived them over and over and over again, as it will in the future.


Maybe by step 7 things will be better

This thread appears to have wandered in a number of different ways ... anyway, here's what I think, as a new member of the forum who'd like to help, but is feeling wholly overwhelmed by this place at the moment.

I really don't want to annoy or upset anybody, I just think since you're currently wondering why you aren't seeing more helpful newbies it wouldn't hurt from you to hear from a me as a newbie about my perspectve ...

Firstly ... this current tone of this forum is pretty off-putting, so it'd be nice if something changed soon ...

... the first area I have issues with is the newbie jumping in with both feet and complaining loudly about what a crappy phone/mobile computer/whatever they've just purchased ... I don't have a problem with their complaints so much, they're going to complain after all, but I do have an issue with the way these posts are dealt with by the community, if I felt ownership of this community I'd point them towards the nokia forums and tell them to go complain over there, as this is a place of finding solutions to problems not banging on and on about them, then find out if there's something I could actually help them with ... I'd also discourage people from continuing to respond over and over to threads like that, continually bumping them back up the forum, and rehashing the arguments over and over again.

... the next area I have issue with in relation to the current tone of the forum is the number of navel gazing threads started by and populated by the forum's "elite" members, raking over just how bad things are at the moment and how annoyed they are with all of the newbies on the forum ... it's always worth remembering just how many newbies will be lurking and reading these threads who haven't actually caused any problems yet, but are being put off the community by the bickering on threads like these ...

Secondly the Forum and Community structure is wholly baffling to me and I've been here for weeks now ... somebody really needs to sort out the multiple sign in system asap, it's wholly ridiculous for a site like this ...

… is there a good reason for the current forum structure? … I own an n900 and there must be at least 10 individual forums covering things I’m interested in … I'm really not sure it needs to be quite that hard to find the right place to post/read … I'm not sure it’s possible, but it would be nice if individual threads could appear in multiple forums if they are related to more than one forum … it would also be much easier if you had a dedicated help forum … that way all of the people who'd just like a simple answer to a simple question could find an easy place to post and any simple questions could easily be answered by those of us who’ve read slightly further afield and are happy to help ...

... if somebody complains about a potential bug, they shouldn't be told to file a bug report without also being told how, and if you don't want newbies filling bug reports then you need to stop telling them to, but instead work out how to get the pertinent information from them ...

... it should be easier to help test apps from Extras-Testing ... so far as I can see, this is something that most helpful members of the community should be able to assist with, it probably wouldn't hurt if the extras-testing repo was accessible only by people who'd agreed to help actually test the apps available, thus hopefully increasing the number promoted to extras ...

... just my thoughts ... feel free to ignore them and carry on raking over the woes of the world!

... oh and incase I forgot to say before, I really do appreciate everything you've all done for the community ... all of the questions you've answered, all of the solutions you've created discovered and in any way helped to bring about!

Because I am their leader - I have worked with PCs (albeit not anything Linux Wise) for over 20 years, so i do have some grasp and technical knowledge, just not in this field, I can only image just how a "Average Joe" would be feeling when he opened up this phone.

Celicabloke makes some very good points.

The n900 and maemo have huge potential to be a terrific device.

Whatever Nokia decides to with the phone - long-term support or divert their resources to then next maemo-based device. At least we have the community to keep developing the n900 further.

Personally I think it is a great shame that the previous generation of maemo device owners have been ignored - by us and Nokia.

There is a huge wealth of knowledge within this community - I'm sure amongst ourselves we can develop a great platform.

This way when Nokia decides to abandon the current generation of maemo at least we can keep developing for it and maybe if possible backport some apps to older devices.

The great things about open source software is that we have more control over the devices we own, anybody can make a contribution to the community and the source is available to play with.

We need to include everyone in the community and welcome new people with open arms.
If we build a strong community it can only benefit us and improve our maemo devices.

If people feel that certain sections of the community are polarised or feel excluded then we need to fix it and adapt.

Good post Emma. Well thought out. The only part I disagree with is I don't see most of this really as "bickering" as just expressing a point of view.. but that's relatively minor. All your points stand.

Most of them *are* being worked on tho, especially with regard to forum layout, single sign-on, etc. For that we just need to be patient.

Again: just musing out loud. Take it as you wish.

And maybe I need to make this clear in general: I wasn't speaking on behalf of the council in this thread nor even in any sort of council capacity. I was simply expressing my preferences, as well as some likely outcomes based on prior experience.

Personally I think the current structure ill-serves both advanced users AND newcomers... and by no means am I suggesting that my thoughts on that so far are paramount. Most of what I've said is from the gut or heart and closer to brainstorming than actual problem-solving.

*grins* ... you may not see it as bickering ... but the threads I'm referring to do have a negative overtone, which makes the differences of opinion feel more stressed than if they were differences of opinion in a more positive thread ... I just think to an outsider (me) reading the core of the community being negative isn't incredibly helpful to raise the feel of the forum, and get things back into a more helpful and hopeful vein ...

Sorry... while I empathize with your concerns I think that's way, way too broad and an insult to the so-called "elite". It ignores that fact that we old-timers tend to complain about specific types, not "newbies" in general. Very specifically, the aggressive, hostile types who spit in the face of anyone who dares try to inject calm and reason into a rant. It happens far too frequently. I feel like "no good deed goes unpunished" is the rule lately.

There are two or more sides to any situation. It's easy to slam an "elite"... much more difficult to try seeing a situation through the eyes of another.

I'll try harder to look through yours, though.

I have to agree. Plus besides advanced users and newcomers you have the divide between developers and users of all sorts.

I'll muse a bit. Why are all the forums on the main page? How about moving the OS/Platform category so that it's under the Development section. The Software forums could go under the Downloads section. Put the Talk forums under the Community section. Leave the Devices forums under the Talk tab on the main page where new users are most likely to find it.

Well... I still don't see how you came to that interpretation at the time. If I meant to say they were preferable, I would have stated that explicitly. Besides, I believe I've said enough in other subjects (community outreach, maemo greeters, et al) to dissuade anyone of that impression. If not, I really do mean the "catch phrases" in my signature.

I rarely imply anything unless I'm kidding around.