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Cue	2012-05-09 , 06:40
Posts: 840 \| Thanked: 823 times \| Joined on Nov 2009	#1161

Originally Posted by danramos

Seeing as how I'm an American, I can understand your assumption that I'm probably fat

Isn't Lumiaman also American (more specifically from the US)? I remember some odd Green day references, I'm confused now. Self insults?

Anyway I think this has derailed pretty badly, it's not even about Nokia anymore let alone its stock price. I think it's time we post on topic again.

ajalkane	2012-05-09 , 07:43
Posts: 1,313 \| Thanked: 2,977 times \| Joined on Jun 2011 @ Finland	#1162

Originally Posted by danramos

It clearly didn't pain you enough to humor my request to please correct me if I was wrong. Go ahead and explain your understanding of cooperative versus preemptive in the context of operating systems controls.

I did correct that you were wrong. I just didn't explain the correct definitions mainly because I don't like to write long messages on mobile.

But to prove how much I am in pain, I googled it for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compute...2Ftime-sharing

My main issue was that you mixed the terms. Minor point is that, luckily, cooperative multitasking is not probably used in any current operating system.

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	danramos	2012-05-09 , 10:11
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#1163

Originally Posted by ajalkane

I did correct that you were wrong. I just didn't explain the correct definitions mainly because I don't like to write long messages on mobile.

But to prove how much I am in pain, I googled it for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compute...2Ftime-sharing

My main issue was that you mixed the terms. Minor point is that, luckily, cooperative multitasking is not probably used in any current operating system.

Doh! I didn't even need to go Googling it--I knew full well but expressed it incorrectly. Having come from an Atari ST (co-op under TOS, pre-emptive under MiNT) and Amiga (pre-emptive) background in my early days, I'm well aware of both but had described them in reverse. You're right and even after you pointed it out, I still didn't notice or catch myself. My points remain standing, though, but you're right--the terms WERE reversed.

You're totally in the right. My bad and my apologies!

Wish I could grant you some karma points for that.

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rcolistete	2012-05-09 , 14:18
Posts: 1,269 \| Thanked: 3,961 times \| Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil	#1164

Originally Posted by danramos

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the purpose of 'cooperative multitasking' that the OPERATING SYSTEM decides when to halt and execute running software in a fast "app switching or another funny description" method? The other alternative would be "preemptive multitasking", which is where the APPLICATION decides when to allow another application to be able to have a slice of time and the operating system isn't deciding when to halt and execute running software. My impression is that each of these systems employs some mixture of BOTH of these multitasking principles. In the case of Android, at least, I know you can use BOTH methods and the author can employ either method on a per-thread level.

The above text is confusing multitasking methods (cooperative, preemptive) with suspending x swapping running software.

On Maemo/MeeGo (like any Linux distribution) a running software can use RAM or swap memory (when there is not enought RAM, but it is a lot slower) and only you decide to close (or stop) running softwares (or if the OS lacks real and virtual RAM, the running processes with less priority will be closed as needed). So you have the freedom to leave any software (with GUI or not) in background, any number of them, for any time you want. With this freedom comes the responsibility : the system can become slow if a lot of swap memory is used, the CPU can hit 100% and the battery will drain, etc.

While Android (or iOS & WP7) decides by itself to suspend running softwares (i.e., so the software is not using CPU cycles, not running in background) to save battery, RAM, etc. The "recent app list" of both Android 4.0 & iOS doesn't show running softwares, just the most recent softwares : some softwares suspended can be there, and some running softwares are not there... For Android, just use SystemPanel software (free & paid versions) which shows a real picture of running, suspended, etc, softwares.

The advantage of Android over iOS and WP7 is that a software can remain in background (without being suspended in normal situations, i.e., if there is enough RAM) if it is separated in a service (so the software is divided in client+server solution). But AFAIK, software services in Android cannot update GUI in background.

Here we can see that Android doesn't have swap memory*, so only real RAM is used. So everytime RAM is low, softwares running in background (including services) are suspended/closed :

"If there is too little RAM, processes hosting services will be immediately killed like background processes are. However, if appropriate, Android will remember that these services wish to remain running, and restart their process at a later time when more RAM is available. For example, if the user goes to a web page that requires large amounts of RAM, Android may kill background service processes like sync until the browser's memory needs go down."

So, even the 1 GB of RAM of my Asus Transformer TF-101 seems to be not enough for my usage due to the not real multitasking of Android 4.0 : a web browser with many tabs and a PDF document that I "left open" can sometimes be suspended/closed by the Android OS so the documents/sites are reloaded when I open them again. I have experienced this problem many times. By comparison, doing the same thing on Nokia N9 or even N900 doesn't give any problems of reloaded sites, documents, videos, etc.

(*) : I've seen references of swap memory use on Android for modified ROM's (Cyanogenmod, etc) or swap being enabled. But it seems a vanilla Android is not expected to have swap memory.

__________________
Python, C/C++, Qt and CAS developer. For Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish :
Integral, Derivative, Limit - calculating mathematical integrals, derivatives and limits. SymPy - Computer Algebra System.
MatPlotLib - 2D & 3D plots in Python. IPython - Python interactive shell.
-- My blog about mobile & scientific computing ---
Sailfish : Sony Xperia X, Gemini, Jolla, Jolla C, Jolla Tablet, Nexus 4. Nokia N9, N900, N810.

Last edited by rcolistete; 2012-05-09 at 17:37.

olighak	2012-05-09 , 14:38
Posts: 519 \| Thanked: 366 times \| Joined on Sep 2009 @ North Carolina (Formerly Denmark and Iceland)	#1165

Accenture is bringing the hatchet onto the poor Nokian's thrown over to them last year.

Elop just moved them over so that he didn't have to do it himself.

A third of those moved over are being diverted from Symbian. Half of those, 500 people, diverted to Windows Phone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...pe=companyNews

zimon	2012-05-09 , 15:54
Posts: 1,341 \| Thanked: 708 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#1166

Originally Posted by olighak

Accenture is bringing the hatchet onto the poor Nokian's thrown over to them last year.

Nokia also is quitting Research Center in Ruoholahti Helsinki, which used to be place for Maemo and Meego development.

http://www.intomobile.com/2012/05/08...sinki-finland/

Last edited by zimon; 2012-05-09 at 15:56.

	daperl	2012-05-09 , 16:22
	Posts: 2,427 \| Thanked: 2,986 times \| Joined on Dec 2007	#1167

Originally Posted by rcolistete

The advantage of Android over iOS and WP7 is that a software can remain in background (without being suspended in normal situations, i.e., if there is enough RAM) if it is separated in a service (so the software is divided in client+server solution). But AFAIK, software services in Android cannot update GUI in background.

Here we can see that Android doesn't have swap memory, so only real RAM is used. So everytime RAM is low, softwares running in background (including services) are suspended/closed

Here's a quote from the two year old link you posted earlier:

On Android, you can create your own background service. That service can be in its own process, i.e. it gets its own block of memory allocated to it. That way if your application gets terminated, the service lives on. However, a service can be terminated just like an app. So you cannot rely on the service always running, instead the service should be there to enhance your application. Further, Android gives you ways to get your service restarted/pinged on a regular basis to do work.

If this is true, then it seems there's some asynchronous mechanism for an Android process to request a restart or be kept alive. That's pretty powerful, and if done right, an app could run indefinitely.

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	volt	2012-05-09 , 17:06
	Posts: 1,309 \| Thanked: 1,187 times \| Joined on Nov 2008	#1168

Y'all discussing semantics and how Android have afterthought tools to avoid the weaknesses of not having real multitasking. I don't care about this discussion at all. Why? Cause my Android devices keeps stopping my tasks, i.e it'll stop listening for incoming messages in client software. It's not real multitasking. It's not even very good at fast app switching unless you use third party software. Maemo had the upper hand here, and I'm not about to change my opinion on this until MY Android phone does as good a job as MY N900 did to keep MY software running.

Side note: a few months ago a survey showed that Windows 8 was the most-wanted OS for tablets in the general population. Doesn't mean it'll be good, doesn't mean it'll sell... But it does mean it's pretty inaccurate to say that nobody wants it.

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rcolistete	2012-05-09 , 17:22
Posts: 1,269 \| Thanked: 3,961 times \| Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil	#1169

Originally Posted by danramos

So, Ubuntu server isn't a Linux distribution until you decide to install X11? Or does it just need to be available? Does that mean Android is now a Linux distribution thanks to that X11 project being AVAILABLE for Android? You seem to be playing some odd game of semantics that doesn't really seem to fit a solid explanation or definition.

Ubuntu Server (for example) can have X Windows, Gnome, Unity, Xfce, etc, installed very easy. Just some "sudo apt-get install" and its done.

Try installing X Windows on Android to run Linux softwares which depend on X11... good luck.

Originally Posted by danramos

I was also aware of Maemo/MeeGo's limited features as well--it still seems to need the further installation of Debian and libraries to still satisfy much of your definition of a Linux operating system.

Maemo/MeeGo are "so limited" that many Linux softwares are compiled without problems to Maemo/MeeGo, other need some tweaks in the make process, other need GUI chances, etc. Result : many Linux softwares are available on Maemo/MeeGo which are absent on Android. It is a fact. Just go to Maemo.org Packages Interface and try to find if many of these softwares are or can be available on Android. Answer : no. Android lacks many basic Linux dependencies.

I am the author of Integral, Derivative and Limit for Maemo 4 & 5. You can run Integral by typing "python integral.py" in Windows, Linux, Mac OS and Maemo 4 & 5, using the same Python source code. It is because Maemo 4 & 5 behave like a desktop OS in many aspects (due to X Windows, glibc, Gtk, Qt, etc). I have "Integral.py" for Android and is totally different, specific for Android.

Originally Posted by danramos

Maemo/MeeGo is very interesting compared to say, Windows Phone, due to its Linux origins. But it lacks many, many MORE Linux features from Android. (What version of the Linux kernel are you up to on Maemo/MeeGo, now?

Come on : Ubuntu for Android is a project from Canonical, not commercially available to users, nobody knows the details about it : Linux components users, versions, etc.

Which Android device has now Linux kernel v3.3 ???

Well, Android 4.0.3 9.1.1.21 ICS (from 2 weeks ago) of my Asus Transformer TF-101 has v2.6.39-4 of the Linux kernel. My N9 has v2.6.32.48. My N900 has v2.6.28.10.

Lumiaman	2012-05-09 , 17:23
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I think that NOKIA stock will bottom out. Although I was a believer, I am losing my faith that they can even compete in the hardware department. their specs are inferior to many phones, loose buttons, plastic door that fall apart. Sorry, but I think that Samsung is doing it the right way. They specialized as the harware company and are doing a great job. Apple will ultimately have to choose how they will specialize.