I think you meant 5MP vs. 8MP , but the point the camera nuts are making is not one of megapixels; I have a 12MP point-and-shoot, and it still takes pictures like a point-and-shoot. Not terrible, but not great, a good 5MP camera beats it for all practical uses. Fortunately for me, that's good enough; even a 3-5MP on a phone would probably do quite well for me. Not that I don't know the difference, but that photography is not a hobby for me, I get my wallpaper more from db than my own pictures, and I don't want to spend the cash on a good camera I don't have time/interest to properly enjoy.

(Which might be drifting OT, except that it makes a good point; since different people have different levels of need for a camera, some people might be cool with a convergence device camera; the same applies for internet device and telephone.)

As for phone capabilities, or at least GPRS/UMTS data connectivity, Nokia's dropped hints that those are going to happen in some model. WiMAX is coming already, so it's obvious that Nokia is interested in ubiquitous data access. If WiMAX does go belly-up, I think they'll have little choice but to refocus on GPRS/etc. access. Otherwise, those may come later, with a focus on the European market. (The reason they're involved with the Xohm push in the US first is probably because of their limited market share here; everywhere else, the N95 is probably the biggest competitor to the N810gsm, and so they don't stand to gain as much by that.)

And I'm with Qole this far: given a good data infrastructure the tablets can access, VoIP can give all the phone capabilites needed; actual GSM voice calls are as necessary to a modern convergence device as AMPS on a phone.

Bottom line: Maybe you totally need a telephone, and somewhat need an internet device and camera; N95 is a great fit, a phone with converged (=compromised, in some ways) internet and camera capabilities. Qole and I totally need an internet device, and somewhat need a phone; we'd like an internet device (N8x0) with a converged (=compromised, in some ways) phone solution like VoIP. The only problem is that there's no existing combo of thoroughbred internet device and ubiquitous network; the only way to get around that right now is to include a phone/modem as a second device. That's why Qole says it doesn't exist. (I'm willing to accept the N95 as converged; I'm working with a different definition of converge than Qole, evidently.)

(I also differ with Qole in pessimism about the possibility of such a network; I see e.g. T-Mobile USA offering unlimited data-only plans at $40/mo, and unlimited quantity data add-ons (for voice plans) at $6/mo (with port-filtering) and $20/mo (w/o filtering); if they achieve decent 3g coverage (which they seemingly plan to) that looks like they're headed there.)

Sorry. I disagree that convergence has anything to do with your carrier/service provider. With all due respects, and I really do respect you guys completely, thats another weird statement.

Thats like saying a convergence device has to be yellow or it has to be made in Greenland.

Sure, having no service fee is "cool" however not being able to make a phone call when you are out of wifi/wimax range is "not cool".

The N8XX is like a laptop in your pocket. The N9X and iphone are also.

N9X and iPhone cannot run full Debian Linux and give me access to all of my desktop software in my pocket.

No matter how poorly they do or don't run.. the option is there for me to use any software on my Laptop on my N810; with zero learning curve. It's the same software.

Finding "equivalent" software for a n95 or an iPhone, if it even exists, means a learning curve and means it's not actually my Laptop, in my pocket. So that statement is as weird as the statements you find from us weird.

ETA: Not to mention.. I can add 10's of 1000's of software to my N810; space permitting; without spending a dime. Amazingly like my laptop. I can't add 10's of 1000's of software, space permitting, to an iPhone without spending money. I can get "free", "basic" trial versions.. but not full blown, completely developed software. At least, not as many.

Yeah, I'm pretty bitter and pessimistic, I know. Without an obvious fountain of profit, I can't see any of the current carriers offering true high-speed data networks any time soon... They're only offering these things they call "unlimited data" because they know they can squeeze you in other ways.... Can you do good VoIP over this data-only plan? Is that $40 all you have to pay (no 3 year contracts, etc)? How much do the devices to access this network cost?

I hope you're right Benson. I really do.

fatalsaint, what is your point. You sound as if you think, that I think, that the N9X is a better and more robust device than the N8XX.

That is not what I think at all. I would throw my N9X away in a heart beat if the N8XX allowed me to make a phone call via the cellular networks.

The N8XX is a far more superior device however if you are looking for convergence, and most people are (except the niche internet tablet folks), then walk right past the N8XX.

I guess... I suppose if carrying one device is worth the compromise then it makes sense.

My BB pearl is 3 inches long and 2 inches wide, give or take, and just sits on my hip; not in anything's way... so I prefer not to sacrifice or compromise functionality to get rid of a device that isn't bothering me anyway. If my N810 needs internet.. it's available via the pearl.

I just don't want nokia to move into locking the tablet devices down. I enjoy doing whatever I want with it.. including loading a new OS. The more proprietary hardware that is added the harder getting any normal OS to run on it will be. That trade-off isn't worth it for me =-(.. and I would not bother upgrading if the N900 did it. We are already experiencing the draw-backs of proprietary hardware by having a 3d accelerated video chip - and no way to make it work.

Moving into the cell phone market will just make it worse.

OK, I agree that there is such a thing as a convergence device; and I have had a few of them for a while now. It is the Internet-connected PC.

I have a server in my basement, tied into my phone line (so my wife can make cheap Skype phone calls to her grandma in Germany, also so my friends in other countries can call me for free by Skyping me), and holding hundreds of hours of music and video, and thousands of digital photos that we've taken over the years. I have another computer behind my TV and an old PIII laptop on the kitchen table (or folded up on the bench when not in use).

When my wife makes a long distance call on her cordless phone via Skype, sends some digital photos to the local supermarket for printing while sitting at the kitchen table, or presses "play" on the remote in the living room so my daughter can watch Thomas the Tank Engine go off the rails yet again, she's using my "converged" network of PCs. When I put Radio Paradise on the speakers in various rooms in the house, it is coming from California via my "converged" network.

The reason why I believe the N8x0 is a better "convergence" device is that it is a hand-held, Internet-connected PC, the very essence of "convergence" for me. You can make phone calls on it and you can be on all of the IM networks, so it is a great communicator. It plays media fairly well, and it can do most anything a PC can do. Some people use it to tune their cars, some use it to tune their guitars.

I truly believe the whole mobile phone industry, as it currently stands, is an evolutionary dead-end. True convergence won't happen until they discard the whole idea of closed, proprietary communications entirely and everyone is carrying around hand-held, Internet-connected PCs. I don't care who makes them, I don't care who provides the services, as long as I can get on the 'Net with my device (for a reasonable flat rate of course) and use any application I want to do what I want.

I just dont think Nokia can continue with the Nokia N8XX the way it is now cause the sales guys in the Nokia store in Chicago whisper to me that the N8XX just doent sell much. If this is true than dont expect to see the N8XX around long in its current incarnation of not making phone calls

your impossible.

We like being impossible.

It makes the companies that want to sell to us come up with new, innovative ways to provide us what we want.. the impossible.

If people were always happy with what they got... there would never be any moving forward.