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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2010-03-21 , 11:46
Posts: 2,535 | Thanked: 6,681 times | Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK
#111
Originally Posted by YoDude View Post
One thing that was handled poorly was the explanation to forum members when itT was acquired by maemo.org. You see, we were all semi-happy clams living in an autocracy with Reggie as our benevolent dictator. The problems began when that changed. The problem compounded when it was explained that we now had a vote in a more "democratic" process. Those new to maemo.org found that they had earned no karma while some heavy lifters, that forum members may have never seen before had gobs of karma.
I'm not sure, specifically, who you're referring to here. As you say, the metrics have changed, but over 90% of the names on the first page of the profile list are heavy users of the fora. For the longest time, I remember the top 10 karma owners being people who provided the most popular applications in Extras: these are names people should recognise.

The problem manifested itself when the forum theme changed. A simple "what happened thread" turned into a place for forum members who felt alienated and wanted to voice their displeasure with the whole process.
Which is all fine and reasonable, except why was the vitriol directed at the council members who were trying to answer questions; rather than at Reggie who was the only one who could control what happened to his baby?

Not that I'd like to have seen that spite at Reggie, but the whole thing about that period was that it was a small number of people venting their spleen about something. I'm not sure what it was, and although your explanation seems logical at first glance, I'm not sure it holds up either.

It also took an election cycle or two before some forum only members had enough karma to vote I believe.
But what has the voting got to do with the transition of ITT to tmo? The decision wasn't one taken by the council, but the council were on hand to try and help with the transition. There were lots of comms (revisit the threads, seriously) before the URL change, during the theme design and after the default theme changed.

All of the people leading the complaints (IIRC) were entirely able to vote; indeed in the last election one of them stood, and won! It's ironic that this proponent of "forum only" members almost entirely dropped off the radar for the last 6 months, despite running on a campaign of "more communication".

Anyway, ITT has earned karma for ages (and there've been repeated attempts to get more people to link their accounts); doing any activity on maemo.org (including rating a download) earns karma and all three elections (and the referenda) have been heavily promoted here.

If the council really were making sure far reaching decisions, a "forum only" member has no excuse for not being aware or involved. This is why, at the last election, I made sure I worked with Reggie to ensure that every tmo account which would be eligible to vote, but wasn't linked to a maemo.org account, received a personalised email giving them the exact steps to create an account on maemo.org and link it with their tmo account such that they could get the karma they were owed.
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SD69 is offline SD69
2010-03-21 , 17:56
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#112
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
the whole thing about that period was that it was a small number of people venting their spleen about something. I'm not sure what it was
Wow. It was unfortunate that you wouldn't recognize the legitimacy of the complaints then, and more so that you are still trying to minimize and dismiss them now as something vague and unworthy. We all make mistakes but we should at least try to learn from them. Why should people vote for you when you seem to have continuing difficulty respecting the opinions of community members that are different than your own?
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qole is offline qole
2010-03-21 , 18:45
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#113
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
For the longest time, I remember the top 10 karma owners being people who provided the most popular applications in Extras: these are names people should recognise.
Now, of course, the top ten are mostly top bloggers.
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2010-03-21 , 19:28
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#114
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
Wow. It was unfortunate that you wouldn't recognize the legitimacy of the complaints then, and more so that you are still trying to minimize and dismiss them now as something vague and unworthy.
Because they were vague[1]. As to whether they were worthy, it's not for me to say. It's easy to lose sight of the valid kernel of criticism when it's surrounded by repeated vitriol, FUD and personal attacks. Despite repeated requests, no-one offered concrete suggestions on what could've been done bettter.

Obviously something went wrong, however I'm not sure it's as simple as "lack of communication". I think it's that a large part of the community felt that they, and everyone else, were part of the Maemo community (collaborating on Downloads, in Bugzilla, on IRC, on the mailing lists and - mostly - here); however there were also a few (and that doesn't minimise their importance) that felt that they were part of an ITT(-only) community which was separate.

This continuing talk of "forum only members" or "representing the forums" just perpetuates this falsehood about separation. Still the people with the most karma are some of the most prevalent on Talk; and everyone is part of the wide, diverse and multi-faceted Maemo community[2]

This diversity is something that Maemo has got because it's grown organically. The MeeGo community, in trying to learn from Maemo's "mistakes", is trying to regiment, design and plan more things - I think it will be less successful.


[1]
  • They started off as "we weren't told" - well, yes you were in Reggie's announcement and in several posts leading up to it.
  • Then "we don't like the new theme" - well, it was trailed here, on blogs and (of course) on maemo-community and Reggie responded to the feedback; resulting in an iterative process which produced an excellent end-product.
  • Then "we want the mobile theme back" - to which Reggie said wasn't feasible as he'd upgraded vBulletin and it wasn't a simple job, and that help was welcome
  • Then "we really want the mobile theme back, and others too!" - to which Reggie reiterated that anyone was welcome to submit a new theme. andrewfblack did.

[2] Which is also why trying to pin down the exact size of the community is somewhat wasted effort; it's not a club where people get membership badges and have to pay their subs every year: it's a fluid, organic mass which cannot be exactly defined
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2010-03-21 , 19:46
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#115
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
This diversity is something that Maemo has got because it's grown organically. The MeeGo community, in trying to learn from Maemo's "mistakes", is trying to regiment, design and plan more things - I think it will be less successful.
If we can dial back the "regiment" part, I can't see that effort as bad-- unless the designing and planning preclude too much of the natural organic development.

I do want lessons learned factored in, but at the same time, I'm a firm believer that "good enough" is what an organization should target; striving for absolute perfection is generally disastrous due to that darned ol' Law of Unintended Consequences.

EDIT: forget the 99 questions thrown at us-- I prefer this sort of dialog to let members get a grasp of candidate philosophies (no offense EIPI).
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2010-03-21 , 19:53
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#116
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
If we can dial back the "regiment" part, I can't see that effort as bad-- unless the designing and planning preclude too much of the natural organic development.
True, I was partially thinking about the looooooong threads about forum software; but such missteps are inevitable as this new community is still trying to find its feet, let alone define who they are and what they're working with!
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RevdKathy is offline RevdKathy
2010-03-21 , 19:56
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#117
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
True, I was partially thinking about the looooooong threads about forum software; but such missteps are inevitable as this new community is still trying to find its feet, let alone define who they are and what they're working with!
I got scared to open my email for Yet More Forum Software Debates eventually.

Hopefully we'll get better and slicker at making decisions or nothing will ever actually happen with meego!
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2010-03-21 , 20:07
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#118
Originally Posted by RevdKathy View Post
I got scared to open my email for Yet More Forum Software Debates eventually.

Hopefully we'll get better and slicker at making decisions or nothing will ever actually happen with meego!
We've been damned if we do, damned if we don't as Jaffa alluded.

If no one steps up to shepherd a need, we talk it to death.

If someone steps up, a certain never-satisfied contingent of the electorate blasts the volunteer for being part of some oppressive dictatorship.

The good news is that really is a small number of conspiracy-hunters; bad news is they're loud and have lots of posting time.

I position myself as the representative of considerate do'ers. People who don't care for that shouldn't vote for me. I don't represent naysayers.

/me awaits comment from GeneralAntilles
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2010-03-21 , 20:18
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#119
Originally Posted by qole View Post
Now, of course, the top ten are mostly top bloggers.
I'm thinking top fourteen.
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lemmyslender is offline lemmyslender
2010-03-21 , 22:28
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#120
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
Because they were vague[1].
As I recall, a lot of the complaints were about lack of communication in/to the forum. You don't necessarily agree with that though, hence "vague" complaints.

As to whether they were worthy, it's not for me to say. It's easy to lose sight of the valid kernel of criticism when it's surrounded by repeated vitriol, FUD and personal attacks....I'm not sure it's as simple as "lack of communication".
You've already made a judgement about the complaints about the lack of communication.

Despite repeated requests, no-one offered concrete suggestions on what could've been done bettter.
Originally Posted by lemmyslender View Post
... I participate in other forums where the administrators can force you to view a particular thread before continuing into the forum. Could that be an option to highlight particular topics for the community? ...
I think that was a concrete example of how to improve communication, you posted in that thread, so I assume you read my post. I believe others also made suggestions on how to improve communication as well.

I think it's that a large part of the community felt that they, and everyone else, were part of the Maemo community (collaborating on Downloads, in Bugzilla, on IRC, on the mailing lists and - mostly - here); however there were also a few (and that doesn't minimise their importance) that felt that they were part of an ITT(-only) community which was separate.
I'll have to disagree here. When I first joined the community, I did a lot of reading, and asked some questions. However, being as it was ITT then, it wasn't clear to me that there was so many other places where different types of activities related to Maemo were occurring. I considered ITT (and still consider TMO) to be the place where most *new community members* will gather and discuss, colaborate, etc. In fact, relating to the election, after being active in the forums for several months, It took me a fairly long time to discern how I could become eligible to vote. I had to dig up several posts spanning multiple threads to finally determine the multi-step process that would allow me to earn karma and become eligible to vote. It seemed to me that the people who set up the process to elect a council hadn't exactly gone out of their way to draw attention to the complicated process involved (at least on the forum). IMHO, many community members who were primarily involved in the forum, were left out of the voting process, which fostered a feeling of separation, however unintentional. The fact that many discussions were held in IRC or on mailing lists and only later mentioned in the forums after initial decisions had been reached, again fostered the feeling of separation, again however unintentional. I think there are many more people than you believe are/were part of that "few", just not as vocal as some.

This continuing talk of "forum only members" or "representing the forums" just perpetuates this falsehood about separation. Still the people with the most karma are some of the most prevalent on Talk; and everyone is part of the wide, diverse and multi-faceted Maemo community[2]
IMHO, there is a large part of the community, primarily in the forum, that are end-users. These people don't participate in all the other places out there, hence "forum only". These people are no less part of the community, and as such need someone to represent their views, which aren't necessarily aligned with the views of the developer/advanced user. The Maemo community is diverse, which is why the council should also be diverse and represent multiple view points. Just because someone with a lot of karma is prevalent in the forum (who have also generally earned a lot of that karma elsewhere), doesn't mean they understand the views of the average end-user.

[1]
  • They started off as "we weren't told" - well, yes you were in Reggie's announcement and in several posts leading up to it.
  • Then "we don't like the new theme" - well, it was trailed here, on blogs and (of course) on maemo-community and Reggie responded to the feedback; resulting in an iterative process which produced an excellent end-product.
  • Then "we want the mobile theme back" - to which Reggie said wasn't feasible as he'd upgraded vBulletin and it wasn't a simple job, and that help was welcome
  • Then "we really want the mobile theme back, and others too!" - to which Reggie reiterated that anyone was welcome to submit a new theme. andrewfblack did.
As I recall there was a lot of p*ssing and moaning on both sides, it didn't happen exactly like you are purporting it to have happened

Which is also why trying to pin down the exact size of the community is somewhat wasted effort; it's not a club where people get membership badges and have to pay their subs every year: it's a fluid, organic mass which cannot be exactly defined[/SIZE]
Which is exactly why I wouldn't vote for somebody who presumes trying to get to know the community you are elected to serve is a "wasted effort". I applaude YoDude for trying to get a handle on his potential constituents, instead of assuming he knows what it is / or can't know what it is.
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