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2007-09-06
, 15:34
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#112
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Originally Posted by flareup
Flareup, I re-read your post and I still come away with that same interpretation. Maybe I'm stupid instead of blind.
hey texrat, I wasn't calling YOU blind, I was saying nokia appeared "blind-sided" by Apple, which is a phrase that means something akin to "taken by surprise".
I do actually pay close attention to what you write (one has to in order to read between the lines, no?) - but in this particular case perhaps you should have read my twopenceworth more closely
And the only time there will ever be anything "between the lines" in my posts is when I'm obviously hinting at something. Otherwise, they're meant verbatim.
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2007-09-06
, 15:42
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Posts: 3,401 |
Thanked: 1,255 times |
Joined on Nov 2005
@ London, UK
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#113
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All the criticism of the iPod Touch as a semi-purpose device or whatever will be moot when these products fly off the shelves and are the #1 Christmas sales item - and isn't that really the point? Apple are giving people what they want, or alternatively making people believe it's what they need. And quite often, Apple are right on the money - there's not been any significant backlash about the iPhone and it's functionality, and I doubt there'll be a backlash about the Touch once people get it in their sweaty palms and begin to use it, even if it's just to play audio.
The touchscreen and coverflow etc. may be overkill, but it gives the product that "WOW" factor which makes ordinary people automatically buy the damned thing without thinking twice... where is the N800 "WOW" factor? Really, it doesn't have one - from the device design to the UI design there is nothing "WOW" about the N800. Lots of "neat" and "that's nice", but nothing "WOW".
Nokia may be producing good multi-function devices, but they're not very good at selling them - few if anyone knows about them (poor marketing), fewer still want them (no "WOW" factor). And that, surely, is where Nokia need to improve - for all the "faults" and limitations of the Apple products, Apple know how to make people "want" their products, their products literally sell themselves.
The touchscreen and coverflow etc. may be overkill, but it gives the product that "WOW" factor which makes ordinary people automatically buy the damned thing without thinking twice... where is the N800 "WOW" factor? Really, it doesn't have one - from the device design to the UI design there is nothing "WOW" about the N800. Lots of "neat" and "that's nice", but nothing "WOW".
Nokia may be producing good multi-function devices, but they're not very good at selling them - few if anyone knows about them (poor marketing), fewer still want them (no "WOW" factor). And that, surely, is where Nokia need to improve - for all the "faults" and limitations of the Apple products, Apple know how to make people "want" their products, their products literally sell themselves.
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2007-09-06
, 15:48
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Posts: 3,401 |
Thanked: 1,255 times |
Joined on Nov 2005
@ London, UK
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#114
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Bluetooth support is scheduled for MacOS 10.5, due for release in October. I wouldn't be surprised if Bluetooth A2DP support is then added to the iPhone and iPod Touch (maybe even the Classics?) at the same time as Mac OS 10.5, along with a natty line up of Apple Bluetooth stereo headsets...
Of course, as soon as someone gets an iPod Touch it will be cracked open and the presence (or not) of a CSR (or similar) Bluetooth chip will lay this rumour to rest once and for all.
If the Touch does have Bluetooth support, it might become very difficult to resist making a purchase...
I don't need it of course... I just WANT it.
Last edited by Milhouse; 2007-09-06 at 15:51.
Of course, as soon as someone gets an iPod Touch it will be cracked open and the presence (or not) of a CSR (or similar) Bluetooth chip will lay this rumour to rest once and for all.
If the Touch does have Bluetooth support, it might become very difficult to resist making a purchase...
I don't need it of course... I just WANT it.
Last edited by Milhouse; 2007-09-06 at 15:51.
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2007-09-06
, 15:56
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Posts: 334 |
Thanked: 55 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ Eastern Ontario, Canada
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#115
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Originally Posted by Texrat
Hmmm... That would make it more expensive that the Touch and only about $100 less than the cheapest Dell laptop. Not a great price point.
Don, I highly doubt the N800 successor (or next variant) will be priced that low. Odds are it will be close to the original N800 price.
I think it is time for Nokia to eat a lot of margin to get market share.
Don.
FWIW. I recall a story about Raytheon and microwave ovens. Raytheon introduced the 'Radarange' for $2000-$3000. It did not sell well at all. Eventually they solicited some advice from a non-technical consultant. He simply asked ' how big is this thing?' and after he was told that it was about the size of a large breadbox he said that it had to be priced at $500 regardless of what it actually did.
When I look at a hand held device I see about $200 - or less ...
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2007-09-06
, 16:23
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Posts: 16 |
Thanked: 0 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
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#116
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Originally Posted by namtastic
This guy hit the nail on the head... Apple products don't do everything infact you can say they do very little. BUT what it does do it does better than any other product out there.
It's called iTunes, and the iTunes Store. An iPod is part of a system, and has an extremely simple workflow that allows even the novice to completely experience all of its (albeit limited) features. Point is, there are little to no unexplored corners, no features wasted and unused. Someone who has never heard of a codec can enjoy feature films, video podcasts and music with a very small learning curve.
To compare, the 770 (and subsequently the N800) was put out there in a let's-see-what-you-can-do-with-this mentality. That's perfect for the tinkerers and hobbyists, but its quite clear that most people are not hackers, computer engineers or programmers. Finding a clear purpose for a device is hard if someone isn't leading the way, especially when there *are* limitations, such as memory and processor-speed. Functions feel unnecessary or poorly-designed. The thing itself feels unfocused.
Promise a slick media experience with effortless synchronization and odds are you can deliver. Promise a complete laptop-like browsing experience in your pocket and odds are you can't.
In summary, it's better to do 50% of things to 100% satisfaction than 100% of things to 50% satisfaction. That's been the success of Apple these days, and why people will flock to an Apple solution -- because of the promise of a complete experience, even if it comes with incomplete functionality.
But incomplete to who? That's the point. We like the ITs because our requirements for features is large. But right now, we're the exception, and in many ways the ITs are ahead of the curve.
People whine about oh it's not open source you can't install extra programs on it you can't tweak it... let me tell you this I'm not a hacker, I use the application manager that comes with the N800. I don't use the terminal, I don't have becomeroot installed. Yet some how my skype crashes on launch and I can't fix it I don't know where to find the debug information, I don't even know who to tell. My skype has been broken for 2 months, I've tried reinstalling it but I'll be damned if I have to reinstall the entire os and kill all my apps.
You can say Apple has good marketing Job's is a fantastic magician but you know what his tricks aren't illusions. They're real every feature they mentions it works as advertised.
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2007-09-06
, 16:28
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Posts: 116 |
Thanked: 1 time |
Joined on Mar 2006
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#117
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I hate to say it, but anyone who thinks this new Apple device will not kill the N800 is totally, completely wrong! Most users here are the hacker and enthusiast types. I am not. I am Mr. Average Consumer. I have owned an N779 and a N800 and would buy the Apple device instead of a NIT because even though the N800 theoretically can do more than the Apple, in reality for Mr. Average Consumer the N800 cannot do much at all and doesn't even do things it is supposed to be good at perfectly. Plus, no pda functions, no MS Word compatible word processor, no citrix, no real email. I know everyone always says that is not what the N800 was "meant" for and that it is an Internet Tablet, well guess what folks -Apple's device is going to kick the sh*t out of the N800 as far as browsing is concerned. Oh and using a cell phone with the N800 is no simple task, plus is dog slow so the mobility is not a real advantage for the N800. If Nokia wanted the NIT to survive it needed to make it into something that would really have differentiated it from the Apple device. Nokia will not be able to sell anymore IT devices after the Apple device hits the shelves. R.I.P. N800! It is over.
p.s. The Newton was the best pda ever made, but it died because it was ahead of its time and could not keep up.
p.s. The Newton was the best pda ever made, but it died because it was ahead of its time and could not keep up.
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2007-09-06
, 16:37
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Posts: 477 |
Thanked: 118 times |
Joined on Dec 2005
@ Munich, Germany
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#118
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Originally Posted by Milhouse
Duh? My Mac certainly has bluetooth support NOW. I've even used it to exchange files with the N800...
Bluetooth support is scheduled for MacOS 10.5, due for release in October.
Anyway. As to bluetooth support in the iPod touch, the cited pictures have been corrected on the apple site, and the bluetooth symbol removed. So it looks like it was a mistake and the iPod touch will not have bluetooth support, which also means it won't be able to browse the web via a cell phone, support wireless bluetooth headphones, etc...
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2007-09-06
, 16:51
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#119
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Originally Posted by dont
I can't just arbitrarily dismiss your points, because they have general merit. $200 does "feel" like a magic number for an upper limit on handheld devices. The problem is that right now no company is going to get the power of the N800's successor down to that price point. Just flat not going to happen any time soon. Not because they won't, but because they can't. Now, if you want to argue that they follow the PS3 or Xbox 360 model and seed the ecosystem while taking a beating on margins, well, you *would* have a point-- except that there was already an ecosystem in place for games... Microsoft, Sony and others have always merely advanced the state-of-the-art rather than really inventing anything new (since the Atari 2600 that is).
Hmmm... That would make it more expensive that the Touch and only about $100 less than the cheapest Dell laptop. Not a great price point.
I think it is time for Nokia to eat a lot of margin to get market share.
Don.
FWIW. I recall a story about Raytheon and microwave ovens. Raytheon introduced the 'Radarange' for $2000-$3000. It did not sell well at all. Eventually they solicited some advice from a non-technical consultant. He simply asked ' how big is this thing?' and after he was told that it was about the size of a large breadbox he said that it had to be priced at $500 regardless of what it actually did.
When I look at a hand held device I see about $200 - or less ...
Nokia's dilemma is having to create everything: device, core software, much ancillary software, (some) sales channels, etc. There's a chicken-and-egg scenario that prohibits a loss-leader approach that can be made up via software sales-- especially given the Open Source aspect. Now, financial gain can be realized via services, but again, that ecosystem is still too immature. So Nokia really has no choice with this product at this point than to sell it at or near current price levels.
Another point to consider is that price bands do overlap, and consumers generally have no problem with this. True, low-end laptops approach the N800's price but the form factor jumps drmatically. This is where the consumer says, "nice... a significant percentage of laptop power but in a smaller form." Someone like me, and obviously many in this forum, sees the benefit and judges the price overlap to be fair. If the N800 were powered-down to be cheaper, however, even the form factor benefit starts to lose its luster... especially since there are competitors all too willing to fill the void. And along those lines, if the price overlap were truly an issue, Pocket PCs would not be selling.
Sorry for the post length.
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2007-09-06
, 16:53
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#120
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Originally Posted by Mark S
I'll bet you my paycheck against yours that you're the one who's wrong.
I hate to say it, but anyone who thinks this new Apple device will not kill the N800 is totally, completely wrong!
Different devices. Different markets. Different goals. Totally, completely.
Wanna wager?
EDIT: and oh, just so we're perfectly honest here, the iPod Touch lacks the features you bemoan missing in the N800-- so exactly how is it going to "kick the ****" out of it? Especially without Flash? Please. Mark. Think before posting.
Last edited by Texrat; 2007-09-06 at 16:58.
However, I would not be surprised to see the N800's price dropped. I will not speculate on amounts.