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2013-12-18
, 17:15
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Posts: 98 |
Thanked: 104 times |
Joined on Dec 2013
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#1272
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
His use of plurals and "also" type of wordings when talking about not being able to do anything so that all likes it, "that *too* caused a big buuhaa" make it clear he doesn't acknowledge anything - unless the magazine quoted him misleadingly. And he does seem annoyed which indeed is very arrogant because it fails to understand the other side of the story. I think it is quite possible the people at Jolla actually don't get the complaint, but feel it is something bigger, something more unfair, something they could never have done anything about... And I find that sad. For example, there is nothing unreasonable about asking for more openness and to respect the order priority they promised. He makes it sound like the audience is impossible.
Um... IMO he takes responsibility for problems, sentence about impossibility to please everybody was related to launch party for 450 preorderers as they received complaints about "why I was not invited!11!1" way before anybody even knew there would be problems with deliveries. There might be a hint of frustration about criticism that he maybe felt was unfair, but not arrogance or refusing responsibility.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Who has asked them to "opening up everything about their logistics chain"? That is such a strawman argument. They have given basically no info at all. There is a huge range of perfectly reasonable options between nothing and everything.
I'm sure they will take this as a lesson. However, apart from communicating earlier that they have logistics problems that cause deliveries to be late, I don't think it was reasonable to demand them opening up everything about their logistics chain. **** already hit the fan and only relevant thing was (and still is) to get those phones out as quick as possible. There's more time for chit chat and philosophy about what is reasonable for community later since there really was absolutely no information and no way of communication that would have eased the frustration. Only delivered devices do that, so the only reasonable thing to do was to prioritize the deliveries above just about everything else.
Jolla says they care. I think they have failed to set themselves into the position of that part of their early supporter community that expected more involvement, more unlikeness from them. Had they truly done that, they would have responded and communicated with them differently.
Solid communication about progress can HUGELY build trust and relieve frustration. I absolutely disagree with you on that they couldn't. People understand Jolla is a startup, but nobody likes the feeling of being misled. Communications help a lot when you are open, timely, direct.
Instead, now the message is they feel people just can't be pleased. Nice.
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2013-12-18
, 17:17
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#1273
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Originally Posted by IlkkaP
And what do you think it would have helped if Apple had apologized a bit earlier? It would not have fixed their mapping software and it would not have ceased people to laugh at it. Jolla already admitted they had problems, they already apologized for it and even pointed out where the problem was, although not going into details. Apart from communicating these thing a bit late, there was nothing they could have done. Even if they had opened up their whole logistics chain down to every tiny detail, it would not have made any difference if it didn't contribute to effort of getting those devices out. Frustration would have been as great as it is today, only that we would have more details to rip apart for amusement - in addition of that chit chat time being wasted from actually handling deliveries.
I beg to disagree. In today's world, communicating to the customers and general public about the issues is as important as solving the issue itself. Look for example Apple that first failed miserably with their Apple Maps launch and then failed to communicate about it properly (it was only after some time until there was a public apology by James Cook, Apple CEO).
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2013-12-18
, 17:34
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Posts: 98 |
Thanked: 104 times |
Joined on Dec 2013
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#1274
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Much of the frustration here has been not knowing what is going on. When people get information, any kind that feels solid, that buys time and goodwill. Had Jolla kept a blog or microblog about the progress of shipping, that would have tremendously lessened the frustration as people had a rough sense where their order was going. One suggestion was to report daily or every other day the percentage of shipping done. That kind of info gives a sense that something is happening, that the goal is getting nearer. Don't underestimate the damage silence does.
And what do you think it would have helped if Apple had apologized a bit earlier? It would not have fixed their mapping software and it would not have ceased people to laugh at it. Jolla already admitted they had problems, they already apologized for it and even pointed out where the problem was, although not going into details. Apart from communicating these thing a bit late, there was nothing they could have done. Even if they had opened up their whole logistics chain down to every tiny detail, it would not have made any difference if it didn't contribute to effort of getting those devices out. Frustration would have been as great as it is today, only that we would have more details to rip apart for amusement - in addition of that chit chat time being wasted from actually handling deliveries.
Also, if the breaking of the pre-order priority would have been explained, it might help sympathize.
Most importantly, open and solid communications builds a sense of involvement with the community. Now it seems like Jolla doesn't really care. Almost like they want a movement of followers, not a movement of partners.
Nobody asked Jolla to expose everything. Don't flaunt that straw man. There was a whole range of timely comms they could have done.
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2013-12-18
, 17:42
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#1275
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Originally Posted by epmt
I have observed these discussions from distance and this is about the first time I enter into it because IMO some demands have been unreasonable. It might be that I take a different approach to things, because frankly, I only care about what is possible at the moment and problems they have had clearly implicate that they are unable to follow the order priority at this time, at least without having additional delays on deliveries. When you have worked long days (and sometimes nights and weekends) only to be thanked with criticism of not being "open" and failing in just about everything, it's very natural reaction for human being to feel like nothing is enough. Yes, I wanted to have mine earlier and yes, I wanted those phones to be in the hands of fellow pre-orderers before DNA launch. I even hope there won't be such events (nor discussions like this) in future product launches. But to demand something that is clearly impossible to do at this moment because of problems... I think it would be unreasonable.
His use of plurals and "also" type of wordings when talking about not being able to do anything so that all likes it, "that *too* caused a big buuhaa" make it clear he doesn't acknowledge anything - unless the magazine quoted him misleadingly. And he does seem annoyed which indeed is very arrogant because it fails to understand the other side of the story. I think it is quite possible the people at Jolla actually don't get the complaint, but feel it is something bigger, something more unfair, something they could never have done anything about... And I find that sad. For example, there is nothing unreasonable about asking for more openness and to respect the order priority they promised. He makes it sound like the audience is impossible.
Who has asked them to "opening up everything about their logistics chain"? That is such a strawman argument. They have given basically no info at all. There is a huge range of perfectly reasonable options between nothing and everything.
Jolla says they care. I think they have failed to set themselves into the position of that part of their early supporter community that expected more involvement, more unlikeness from them. Had they truly done that, they would have responded and communicated with them differently.
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2013-12-18
, 17:45
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Posts: 388 |
Thanked: 1,340 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
@ Finland
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#1276
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Originally Posted by epmt
We are hearing you, and I would not be surprised if Jolla is also hearing you.
Much of the frustration here has been not knowing what is going on. When people get information, any kind that feels solid, that buys time and goodwill. Had Jolla kept a blog or microblog about the progress of shipping, that would have tremendously lessened the frustration as people had a rough sense where their order was going. One suggestion was to report daily or every other day the percentage of shipping done. That kind of info gives a sense that something is happening, that the goal is getting nearer. Don't underestimate the damage silence does.
Also, if the breaking of the pre-order priority would have been explained, it might help sympathize.
Most importantly, open and solid communications builds a sense of involvement with the community. Now it seems like Jolla doesn't really care. Almost like they want a movement of followers, not a movement of partners.
Nobody asked Jolla to expose everything. Don't flaunt that straw man. There was a whole range of timely comms they could have done.
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2013-12-18
, 17:57
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Posts: 292 |
Thanked: 294 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
@ Milan, Italy
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#1277
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Originally Posted by att
With the number of times the same ~exact message has been posted, it would be difficult not to. I heard it for sure, and I'm starting to be annoyed by it even if I'm not its target.
We are hearing you, and I would not be surprised if Jolla is also hearing you.
Disclaimer: this is meant to be a joke. So laugh, please.
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2013-12-18
, 18:06
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Posts: 98 |
Thanked: 104 times |
Joined on Dec 2013
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#1278
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
I get that. However, what is - and has been - possible all this time is adding communication and a sense that they are truly listening and hearing. The more the community just pats them on the back for comms well done, process well done, no biggie, I think the less they have incentive to improve the next time around. So, I think good feedback can be really helpful for Jolla - and omitting it just because "nothing more can be done" a disservice.
I only care about what is possible at the moment and problems they have had clearly implicate that they are unable to follow the order priority at this time, at least without having additional delays on deliveries.
Just my opinion. I do get it that you disagree with me and acknowledge that.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
It may be a natural reaction, but it doesn't really make it the right reaction.
Then you have worked long days (and sometimes nights and weekends) only to be thanked with criticism of not being "open" and failing in just about everything, it's very natural reaction for human being to feel like nothing is enough.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Unlike you, I don't even care about either of those things. My feedback has been to improve the process and the communication. I can perfectly well live with the delivery delays and the DNA launch. I think the big issue is lack of communications and disrespecting the pre-order order.
Yes, I wanted to have mine earlier and yes, I wanted those phones to be in the hands of fellow pre-orderers before DNA launch.
Slowness is not an issue (we understand they are a startup) and even the DNA part I could let be, although it would have been great there too if they had given info early on that more 2nd wave orderers could have selected DNA store pick-up - one more place where open communications early on would have helped customers make decisions that help them and actually would have helped Jolla too by lessening their logistical woes. Now many people didn't choose DNA store pick-up because they thought it would add delay to the delivery.
That's the really saddest part. I think Jolla have added to their own work and worry by deciding to not communicate.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Again, I don't think the demands are impossible or unreasonable - such as more open comms. But I get it that you disagree.
I even hope there won't be such events (nor discussions like this) in future product launches. But to demand something that is clearly impossible to do at this moment because of problems... I think it would be unreasonable.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Basically the definition of "closed" (vs. open) is they the other party decides what is relevant. Had Jolla been open, they would have let the community decide a bit more what info they can use and what not. I think they could have been surprised what openness can do.
They gave all the information that was really relevant: a) there are problems with logistics and they have problems getting devices delivered in due time and b) they are doing their best to sort it out. In short, there's nothing relevant to add to it, details wouldn't have refined that or contributed to faster deliveries. Yet you were one of those who argued that "it's not open enough."
That doesn't mean they have to tell everything. But the only other choice is not to tell anything and instead sugarcoat things into PR platitudes. For example, a week ago Cybetter told us they were right then "putting stamps" on packages from people who paid by December 2nd. That turned out to be a figure of speech (or a lie if you want to think the worst), but consider them replacing talk like that instead with the suggested percentages of shipping done, say, every other day.
Had they been open since November, it would have helped some people choose DNA store pick-up. It would have lessened people's early expectations so that they wouldn't have been so annoyed when the delays became apparent. Getting a sense of the speed of the progress, would have let people adjust their expectations. Some people, who need to get the item early, could have decided to get it from a DNA store and be happier that way - had they known in time.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
So if you feel that way, answer me this:
I guess it's the price of trying to be community based...
How do you think Jolla's community basedness has shown itself in the pre-order process fulfillment?
Because to me this has been a bit of an eye-opener. Is community based just a marketing line for Jolla? Where is the sense of community in this process?
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2013-12-18
, 18:10
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Posts: 98 |
Thanked: 104 times |
Joined on Dec 2013
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#1280
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Originally Posted by Watchmaker
All we've heard from Jolla is that nobody can be pleased. I wouldn't be quite as sure as you that they are hearing right.
With the number of times the same ~exact message has been posted, it would be difficult not to. I heard it for sure, and I'm starting to be annoyed by it even if I'm not its target.
Disclaimer: this is meant to be a joke. So laugh, please.
Though, I do hear you.
I have not ordered a Jolla myself but can fully understand the frustration among the Jolla fans. I don't understand why Jolla does not communicate, apologize about its logistic problems and do more damage control. It creates only badwill among its small but loyal customer base.