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brontide is offline brontide
2008-07-20 , 12:38
Posts: 868 | Thanked: 474 times | Joined on Oct 2007 @ Capital District, NY, USA
#121
Originally Posted by Mutiny32 View Post
To be quite honest, Nokia and your position on the whole situation is unacceptable. Paying customers don't like to be locked out of features they technically have access and the right to use because they paid for the product, but the developers, willingly or unwillingly disabled them?
Please point to one Nokia page where the specs of device are not fulfilled. Your unrealistic exceptions of the device are not grounds for a lawsuit.

Yes, I would say that there remains a large area where the device could do much better, but at least it's not Apple where they get to charge you for each feature they turn on in software
 
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Mutiny32 is offline Mutiny32
2008-07-20 , 12:54
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#122
Originally Posted by brontide View Post
Please point to one Nokia page where the specs of device are not fulfilled. Your unrealistic exceptions of the device are not grounds for a lawsuit.

Yes, I would say that there remains a large area where the device could do much better, but at least it's not Apple where they get to charge you for each feature they turn on in software
The point is, Maemo is supposed to be OSS It is a downstream branch of Debian. Nokia chose to keep essential parts under NDA and just ignore people. I am not threatening a lawsuit, but the admission of the developers that native ogg support was promised yet never fulfilled Is grounds for legal action if one were so inclined.

It was meant as a word of caution. If you have a determined enough user with enough money to pursue said legal action, they would most likely be successful in either gainig ogg support via DSP or a suitable resolution to the issue.

I don't have any intention of a lawsuit. or any other legal action. I do, however, have the intention of nagging. As sad as that sounds, it has essentially come down to that. Nokia keeps putting the issue off because there is not sufficient pressure to fix it.
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Mutiny32 is offline Mutiny32
2008-07-20 , 12:56
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#123
Originally Posted by brontide View Post
Please point to one Nokia page where the specs of device are not fulfilled. Your unrealistic exceptions of the device are not grounds for a lawsuit.

Yes, I would say that there remains a large area where the device could do much better, but at least it's not Apple where they get to charge you for each feature they turn on in software
I could point you to the product page of the OMAP 2420, which would proxy as a proof that the specs were not fulfilled.
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darklajid is offline darklajid
2008-07-20 , 13:46
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#124
Sorry, but I don't think this attitude helps here.

Should the N8x0 users (or customers, as you like to stress) be demanding regarding the hardware support? Maybe.
But it's no point starting a talk about lawsuits which you recognize as similar when everyone else in here seems (Disclaimer: English is not my native language, I only followed this thread and can of course only speak for myself) to be content with the current way the issue is handled: Using positive ("More features, better device") arguments vs. kind-of-lawsuit-threats from the community and (as far as I can tell) more and more open communication from Nokia.
Look at the wiki talk page link. It looks like there's some progress and almost certainly there's some awareness for this issue inside of Nokia (even if the right PHBs might need a management summary and some more pointers).

I for one (sorry for stealing the /. meme) am glad that the drivers issue is still discussed - which to me sounds like it's still possible that we'll see some official support in watever (NDA+blob, etc.) way.
 

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igor is offline igor
2008-07-20 , 14:21
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#125
Originally Posted by Mutiny32 View Post
I could point you to the product page of the OMAP 2420, which would proxy as a proof that the specs were not fulfilled.
You could and you would be laughable.

Like if I would claim that I can sue you because you are not making good use of your account on this forum and instead you are generating noise.

I have proof of many others who are actually contributing interesting discussions.

Why aren't you using your account in a similar way?

Now I feel emotionally damaged.
 

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brontide is offline brontide
2008-07-20 , 15:02
Posts: 868 | Thanked: 474 times | Joined on Oct 2007 @ Capital District, NY, USA
#126
Originally Posted by Mutiny32 View Post
I could point you to the product page of the OMAP 2420, which would proxy as a proof that the specs were not fulfilled.
And Nokia could do the same thing. Both the on-chip LCD controller and the PowerVR chip do not technically support the 800x480 LCD used on the device. Nokia should not be held liable for every possible use of the hardware and had to make the decision as to what hardware they would and would not support in the device. So unless you are arguing that they should have also used a 640x480 screen I don't see what you are getting at.

I have some complaints about keeping some random portions of the stack closed on an "open" platform but that is not the argument you are making.

Choosing not to develop a product to the fullest != intentionally crippling a product.
 
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Mutiny32 is offline Mutiny32
2008-07-21 , 00:46
Posts: 71 | Thanked: 6 times | Joined on Jun 2008 @ Lee's Summit, MO, USA
#127
Originally Posted by darklajid View Post
Sorry, but I don't think this attitude helps here.

Should the N8x0 users (or customers, as you like to stress) be demanding regarding the hardware support? Maybe.
But it's no point starting a talk about lawsuits which you recognize as similar when everyone else in here seems (Disclaimer: English is not my native language, I only followed this thread and can of course only speak for myself) to be content with the current way the issue is handled: Using positive ("More features, better device") arguments vs. kind-of-lawsuit-threats from the community and (as far as I can tell) more and more open communication from Nokia.
Look at the wiki talk page link. It looks like there's some progress and almost certainly there's some awareness for this issue inside of Nokia (even if the right PHBs might need a management summary and some more pointers).

I for one (sorry for stealing the /. meme) am glad that the drivers issue is still discussed - which to me sounds like it's still possible that we'll see some official support in watever (NDA+blob, etc.) way.

This exactly what I'm trying to do. Make noise. Hold companies to their word (OGG) and push them to keep improving on a product that was obviously prematurely released. Yes, the OS updates are great, but most of the improvements are more like fixes and small, easy usability tweaks. No big feature upgrades to use dormant hardware, no true innovation on the front of the UI, just keeping up with the competition for now.

Take this example; GM made itself the largest car company in the word by doing one thing: innovating constantly. They continually tweaked designs, they constantly updated styles, and theyalways came out with newer and better products. The reason they are in trouble today? Complacency. In the mid-'70s through the early '00s, they just kind of floated along and kept up with the competition. That was a nearly fatal mistake. While they were twiddling their thumbs and selling the same designs with tiny changes for multitudes of years, foreign competitors were constantly innovating. At one point in the mid-'90s, they caught up. But they didn't stop innovating. Why abandon a model that caught GM? Why not go for the kill? So they did. GM finally saw their mistakes and had to scramble to at least keep afloat and they dumped everything they had into R&D. Only now, after they are no longer the world's car juggernaut, are we seeing them innovate, start to frequently tweak style, and crank out products that can compete.

My point is this: Nokia is taking a complacent approach to development on the N-series tablets because, so far, they dominate. But this won't be for long. Competitors saw this flaw and decided to take advantage of it. While not being a MID, the Eee PC is a good example. Now the MSI Wind is out there. Soon, there will be a lot of MIDs flooding the market with features that Nokia didn't capitalize on; even some that CAN be implementd but aren't.

So, like I said in another post, I'm stirring the pot. I don't like skin on my soup.
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2008-07-21 , 11:55
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#128
Originally Posted by Mutiny32 View Post
This exactly what I'm trying to do. Make noise. Hold companies to their word (OGG)[...]/
You keep mentioning OGG. I've been "in" the Internet Tablet community since about October 2005 and I've never seen any "promise" of Ogg support from Nokia. In fact, they've provided reasons why Ogg isn't supported.

Please supply URLs to statements about the provision of Ogg (which doesn't fall under your "the hardware's there, but they're not using it; waaaah!" argument as it's a software & legal issue).

No big feature upgrades to use dormant hardware, no true innovation on the front of the UI, just keeping up with the competition for now.
Fremantle sounds like there'll be a big step up in the consistency and quality of the UI (one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the relevant parts of OSiM World and the summit following it). The N900 (or whatever it's called) will be targetted as a mainstream consumer device and, almost certainly, powered by more powerful chips capable of delivering the experience you require.

Take this example; [...]
Here's a counter-analogy[1]: A car company uses the same engine and ECU in a variety of their marque's cars: a family saloon and a high-end, performance car. The family saloon has the ECU configured such that the revs are limited and injection patterns provide most fuel efficiency vs. power. The performance car has more "unlocked" features.

Would you be rattling on about unfulfilled promises if you bought the saloon car? Even if the MPG ratings, CO2 emissions and 0-60 figures were widely published before you bought?

A company isn't negligent, or reneging on promises, if it uses common components across its portfolio of products if that results in a reduction of costs. Your argument about not using the current OMAP SoCs seems to boil down to "they paid for it, and I paid them. Why can't I have it? They should've used something cheaper". What is cheaper for the bulk quantities of these chips that Nokia is using? Arguing against a large company on the basis of cost isn't a coherent argument anyway: you don't know how much they pay for the chips, and they do.

My point is this: Nokia is taking a complacent approach to development on the N-series tablets because, so far, they dominate. But this won't be for long. Competitors saw this flaw and decided to take advantage of it. While not being a MID, the Eee PC is a good example. Now the MSI Wind is out there. Soon, there will be a lot of MIDs flooding the market with features that Nokia didn't capitalize on; even some that CAN be implementd but aren't.
Nokia dominate? Again, we've not seen sales figures. The most sold portable Internet device in a tablet form factor is the iPhone and iPod Touch. There are many lessons to be learnt there, and whizzy apps with pretty user interfaces.

Many of us are working to try and realise that marketability, user friendliness and ease-of-use on devices running Maemo. Generating a lot of heat and noise on this forum is not a way which will help.

You're obviously enthusiastic, why not identify some specific areas of concern and get involved in the detail of making it better?

Cheers,

Andrew

[1] ...and a car based analogy at that. The best kind :-)
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TA-t3 is offline TA-t3
2008-07-21 , 13:22
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#129
The thing about "making noise" is that there's also a thing called "Signal to Noise ratio", which I personally find more important.

I think everyone pretty much agree that it would be very nice to get all that hardware functional. The best way to get to that point is another story though. What Simon, lcuk and others have been working on seems to me much more useful than just making noise. As for the Verizon case, I believe it's a different issue: They buy fully functional phones from a vendor, then go on to disable functionality. They don't even get a discount for doing that afaik. The N8x0 story is quite different, I won't try to list it here, it should be obvious for anyone following this and earlier threads. In short, I agree with Mutiny32 about wanting the functionality, but I disagree with the means and the comparisions with e.g. Verizon.

I'll go back to lurking mode now.. (re. my initial comment about S/N ratio)
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lcuk is offline lcuk
2008-07-21 , 13:46
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#130
Just a heads up people.
Whilst some have been bickering here it would seem real progress is being made behind the scenes.
The drivers justification page put together last week has been (and is still being) passed around Nokia, Ti and ImgTech.

The Discussion notes page now confirms nokia have unstable internal drivers available and there is discussion about how to turn these drivers into something we can use. https://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Drivers_...iolation_issue

I would say that is a major positive step foreword.

Thank you to everyone for helping with this, but the work is not finished yet
 

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