Actually, I am a 20-year old coder (years coding, not years total). However, I'm a Pascal fan (Delphi) and I primarily code for Windows. The little I dipped into Linux I did solely as to understand how to port network layer.

This gives me some oddball perspective. I am well aware of the advantages of coding for a successful, wide app and developer base, but closed system.

To me, closeness is nothing. I have documentation up my eyeballs. CloseHandle has 4 pages. CloseHandle (handle: DWORD): Boolean;

And for me it is natural to work with closed drivers - I can't nor do I wish to compile the driver myself. In fact, in order to pass WHQL, drivers are signed in binary form.

Still, well documented. I can pass anything from and to a driver at will. Dump calls. Replace layers. Also, all drivers must implement common functions, as required by Microsoft.

As a result, I can open any modem I want, dial, hang up. I can make it so I don't care what hardware is under me, so long as it's supported under Windows.

Such is my view of things, and, as a result, I'm less than excited about openness. It's not bad, and, from what I understand, more needed under Linux since it's a bit less modular. Actually, much less.

E.g., Windows explorer for 2k/XP is about 2000 lines or something to that effect. It's silly. All it does is implement interfaces. Everything else is done by dynamically loaded modules one can replace at will. In XP, the actual window was HTML.

The idea of recompiling a window manager makes my hair stand up. Yes I'm odd.

I get that. However, the analogy is a bit off. It's not the car that's closed in N900. The car is open, it's just that the engine, locking system and windows are closed. And the engine stalls, the locking doesn't always lock and the windows remain open.

I know the car is open. But I don't have issues with the car. The only gripe I have with Maemo this far is that it slows down with uptime, after about 4 days it needs a reboot. Which, compared to other OSs, like Symbian, isn't bad.

I went to bugzilla. Selected platform, the cut out stuff like licensing, documentation. Then took out duplicates, worksforme, moved. 1200 bugs. Here we go. Take out telephony, since it's not actually part of the OS, looking at the bugs. Now select the fremantle versions (5.0), and cut out enhancements, only bugs. 280. Scanning through, I see stuff that shouldn't be in my list, HID mouse, bugs that are likely in drivers like BT disconnects, etc. So, really, I'll guess 150. That's how many bugs Fremantle has. The rest up to 11.000 or whatever the number is now is issues with the closed stuff they wrote. That's 73:1

But if the car is open but all the bugs are in closed systems, do you care, as a user, that the rest of the car is going to be MORE open? Sure, as soon as a wheel breaks, I'll be happy. But windows more that once a week, while the sum of all car issues is one a year. On all car models, summed.

Remember, this is a thread where people complain they have a GPS tracker in they door locking system.

My whole gripe is the fact that nobody has yet written an open engine for may car (they can't). A phone app that natively records, natively speaks, natively switches speakers so I don't need 15 daemons fighting for resources. Hey, one that actually answers when I press green and hangs up on red would be great. The current version can take up to 15 seconds.

That is a misconception on most closed OSs. Might be correct for closed open source projects, like Android, that were meant to be customized through source and source is missing.

But closed OSs are very, very customizable, otherwise they wouldn't have a chance in real competition. Also, there is zero -ZERO- resistance against me from replacing any component or part of Windows should I have the will and time to write it. Some are insanely complex for one human being, but, e.g., I can (and have) replaced the shell, window manager, all apps delivered with it. There are alternatives for all known to man applications. 95% have a free alternative and 90% have a free and open alternative. I haven't swapped Explorer because it's simply that good. I have several file managers installed.

I am aware that I'm not technically fixing a bug by rewriting Notepad. But a) I can replace notepad, can't replace Phone and b) not all users recompile kernels.

I'm probably talking nonsense by now, but the point I'm trying to make is this: Closed OSs don't inherently have the problems Maemo, and Android have now. It's not closeness that's eating N900, it's the docs and developer support.

That's the only good news about MeeGo I've heard this far. Followed with a comfortable distance by the fact that I could run it on N900 and get a few bugs fixed while at it. But the fact that it will be meant for a more powerful platform kind of balances that. I might not want to run it.

I did say virus, as an umbrella term for all malware. The quote, however, was the definition of spyware. And, frankly, it's cherry picking (ha, cherry!). No viruses on our platform also means no malware, worms, spyware, PUS, backdoors, trojans, viruses, etc.

Nope. Google got me:
* free email,
* free online storage,
* decent security
* Maps I use
* Earth I very much like,
* Sketchup I used to design my house,
* always has beta features,
* Image search (anti-scraper techniques pushed me to Bing),
* News,
* Code,
* Translate,
* Free POP access,
* Picasa (storage only),
* Chat,
* audio link for free,
* video link for free,
* Latitude,
* 3D Warehouse,
* SideWiki,
* Reader,
* free online office for non-secure work,
* online virus scan,
* online PDF,
* caches pages.

For that list, I'd buy a SIM and give them that number. They saved me tons of money and continue to do so.

Let's look at Nokia's offer:

* OVI, with its unproven security, video resizing, small storage features
* a repository that's technically a requirement for operating a Linux device
* 4 free desktop wallpapers
* 8 free games some of which people curse at, while free. Like backgammon that eats pieces. And that Globe/candle stuff, since we need that kind of applications, we ran out of actually useful ideas.

For that list, they get my eternal scorn.

Don't you think I realize they index my email (G)? I gave them that right when I enabled the spam filter that, by nature, scans emails. So what. Do you think they'll steal my phone number and send me "information"? No. There are laws in place. All they index must be deleted in 6-9 months. So they target ads. What's what AdBlock Plus is for. And Element Hiding Helper.

Facebook says plain and simple in their warning: Warning, everything you post is bloody public.

I am WELL AWARE that things that leave my computer towards the internet are exposed to a risk. You know what? I know that, so everything that leaves my PC is open or encrypted to hell. Things you send through the net is stuff you can afford to lose.

There is a difference between giving away info and stealing it. Nokia stole it. It asked for it when I registered at OVI. I refused. They took it anyway.

Same here - I got an SMS from "Nokia" (contact with no number, and not listed in contacts) saying registration failed.

I was already joined Ovi (bought a couple of games), but I still would have said "No thanks" on the boot-time "you agree whether you agree or not" screen, if the option had been there. After all, even though I joined to Ovi before, I'd never heard of something called "MyNokia" before and want no part of it.

This device routinely uses internet data access - and moreover, it just used it to fetch the firmware update, and Ovi/MyNokia can only be used with data access.

So the explanation which rings most true for the use of SMS rather than IP data for registration that I've heard so far is that they're using it to gather user *mobile phone* registration activity and IMEI/phone numbers, and mobile registration takeup with operator cross sections, for market research.

If true, that would fly in the face of their explanation that it has anything to do with the device not being a phone.

It even seems to be some kind of premium rate SMS, because some people have said they've been charged for it despite having a mobile plan which includes normal SMSs.

I wonder if causing the device to send SMS, secretly with no record of it sent, to inform the handset manufacturer (not the mobile operator) of user's IMEI, phone number, and whether they have a SIM and mobile account in order to get data that is *not normally available to them even when users voluntarily register online and even when users use Ovi/MyNokia services* - well, does that sound like it should even be legal to gather that kind of user-identifiable profiling data when it is unnecessary for the use of the service?

You should do some troubleshooting. My N900 is used heavily, has never been flashed and will run for 4 weeks without slowing down at all.

(Snip long list of Google services and fanboisms)
Ok. I admit Googlestuff can be seductive. I use Google search because it works great and I have nothing to hide, I'm not searching for child porn or bomb building instructions. I use Google Voice for business calls because it lets me hide my real phone number and I don't care if they know who I call for business. But I would never ever trust Google Docs, Gmail, GV, etc. to keep private stuff private, safe and secure. Google is not truly 'free'. And for the most part, I'm not willing to pay Google's price.

Ovi everything is pretty much a fail, though i don't care.

Which is why the cherry bomb is so ugly and has me pissed and posting in this thread in the first place. But to think Google or many other companies are less evil about such things strikes me as cherry-picking naivete.

Indeed, just like Highlander: if there is only one left, that will be him :-)

For me, much as I dislike this MyNokia debacle, it is more a matter of form than function, and doesn't compare with the "kill switch" (and potential remote install) as found in Android and i(Phone)OS.

I wouldn't accept that on my Pcs, and not on my mobile devices either.

For example, I am eagerly awaiting the first real-life tests of the upcoming Toshiba smartbook, the Tegra-based AC100, to perhaps replace my Atom netbook. But whatever the praise, I would at least wait until I'm sure it can run a real version of Linux instead of Android.

Such things? What things? Lobbying its host government to change laws to allow better snooping of its employees (Lex Nokia)? Selling wiretapping equipment to Iran, used for monitoring the political opposition? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia#N...bility_to_Iran

Oh! But I bet Nokia is leaving China because of their censorship! Right?

Like others have said, Google at least asks you for your permission. They also don't sell their products or sell out their own principles to "evil" (since that word is so popular here) governments snooping on their citizens, or agree to 15th century demands on censorship. Nokia has taken no stance like this, quite the opposite.

I don't see any reason to think that Nokia is somehow "more good" than any of the other companies mentioned here. Their track record on privacy certainly doesn't prove it. Don't make assumptions on their Dungeons & Dragons alignment just because you happen to like their devices and dislike those of the others.

That^ is the best Quid pro quo rationale I have ever seen regarding Google.

The problem that Nokia has in all this is that after a user ante's in their "Quid", what exactly is the "pro quo".

For many it had been hope. I think that is what benny1967 has been articulating in this thread.

Some have "Hoped" that our involvement so far with NIT's would yield a "pro quo" that would benefit us all.

Official responses like this from Nokia not only stomp on that "hope" but indicate that we may have been delusional with regards to this in the past.

Fides, Spes et Caritas...

May I just say that many of the 'claims' of whether a company is 'good' or 'evil' are just conjectures.. or 'impressions' at best, without concrete proof of said claims.

Sure, of course they are...threads like this just will never end as the opinions of "well at least they're not as bad as company XXXX" will just set off somebody else. Personally, I'm still pissed at Nokia for the Lex Nokia episode, so that's why I see red whenever I hear somebody claim Nokia cares about people's privacy.

In the end, of course no company is truly "good" or "evil". A person at the helm of a certain company of course might make a decision that ends up being one or the other ("let's not agree to censorship", "let's sell this crap to Iran", etc.) But of course there's no Dr. Evil in real life, just a bunch of companies making silly electronic gadgets that grown-up people can argue about while they should be doing work.

Oh, remote install is already there, and the "kill switch" could be trivially done as a remote install of a package with appropriate conflicts/replaces headers.

Oh, we're stooping to unsubstantiated hearsay here now?