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2013-12-16
, 03:19
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#1502
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Originally Posted by nman
Please read all the past posts regarding that, or my mails to RMS as quoted in prev post, or wait for our paper to get published one of the next few days. That's basically exactly what we will do
Wouldn't the simplest way to satisfty the paranoid be to have a hardware switch for gsm modem (and maybe gps chip/antenna also)?
The appeal of such a unique feature might result in extra sales also..
... make sure the modem is OFF when we expect it to be (trivial), make sure the
modem cannot get a GPS fix when we don't want it to do (also trivial, cut/short
GPS antenna) ...
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-12-16 at 03:40.
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2013-12-16
, 06:42
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Posts: 9 |
Thanked: 10 times |
Joined on Sep 2013
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#1503
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Originally Posted by lancewex
I'm interested in this too. If I donate my N900, would I be able to get a discount on full device Neo900 that's >= just selling my N900?
I have a decent, fully-functioning N900 I could potentially part with for the cause. If I do, can I get a discount on a NeoN900?
:-)
Another note, what's the solution for the display connector at the moment. Are you guys planning on designing your own? Can people who plan on manually upgrading their old N900s use the display connector that's already there? What's up?
| The Following User Says Thank You to fridgecow For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-12-16
, 06:55
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#1504
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Originally Posted by fridgecow
We are not planning to accept "donations" of hardware for refund. What we probably will offer is a mounting service where you send in the N900, purchase a GTA04-NeoN motherboard and mounting service, and we mount the new motherboard to your N900 and send it back to you.
I'm interested in this too. If I donate my N900, would I be able to get a discount on full device Neo900 that's >= just selling my N900?
Another note, what's the solution for the display connector at the moment. Are you guys planning on designing your own? Can people who plan on manually upgrading their old N900s use the display connector that's already there? What's up?
Regarding display connector we are still searching suppliers and checking our options. We won't "design our own connector" since that wouldn't fit to the display. Makes no sense. The whole concept is based on N900 display half aka the ribbon cable end plugging in to Neo900 motherboard - for that we need the matching connector.
BR
jOERG
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-12-16 at 07:06.
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2013-12-16
, 09:47
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Posts: 26 |
Thanked: 80 times |
Joined on Feb 2009
@ UK
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#1505
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The multi-touch is a nice add on, I recall reading somewhere about a design like the N900 that used a capacitive touch sensor under the keyboard. This allowed the keyboard to be used as a touch pad. It has to be said there would be serious usability questions with this if focus moves as you type.
Another idea for the feature list?
Another idea for the feature list?
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2013-12-16
, 17:53
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Posts: 1,424 |
Thanked: 2,623 times |
Joined on Jan 2011
@ Touring
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#1506
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Richard Stallman got back to me with permission to quote our email. so read below:
ME:
I frequent the Neo900 discussion over at maemo.org. I was thinking
that including an old style one way paging network receiver into
mobile phone designs as a way of receiving incoming contact and
with a bit of software making fast callbacks very possible even
user friendly while keeping anonymity in position and movement as
well as saving battery by leaving the GSM radio turned off most
of the time. This seems to be in line with your privacy
principles.Being a community project it is more open to influence than a large
company.
I thought you would like this.
"Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>:
What a good idea! I am delighted. This might even result in making
portable phones acceptable for me to use.
Can you point me at a page describing the proposal?
What is the Neo900? Is it trying to develop a cell phone
that treats its users ethically? If so, I'd like to see how close
it comes to satisfying these criteria.
* The radio modem should be on a separate chip.
* The main computer should be able to turn the radio modem on and off.
* The microphone and the GPS should be connected to the main computer,
not to the radio modem.
* The software on the main computer should be free -- all of it.
* The radio modem should not be able to control the main computer
or alter its memory.
* It should be designed so that the nothing can alter the radio
modem's own software. This program must not be updatable.
Ideally you should be able to locate cell towers with a directional
antenna and use that antenna to talk with just one tower, so that the
phone network cannot triangulate to find you. But I don't know
whether this is really feasible at all.
in a later email asking form premission to quote..
RMS:
Also please tell them I think the idea of having a one-way pager
system so you know when to make it connect is a very very good idea.
/quote
I will send him the Neo900 update email where he was mentioned.
Last edited by biketool; 2013-12-16 at 19:35.
ME:
I frequent the Neo900 discussion over at maemo.org. I was thinking
that including an old style one way paging network receiver into
mobile phone designs as a way of receiving incoming contact and
with a bit of software making fast callbacks very possible even
user friendly while keeping anonymity in position and movement as
well as saving battery by leaving the GSM radio turned off most
of the time. This seems to be in line with your privacy
principles.Being a community project it is more open to influence than a large
company.
I thought you would like this.
"Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>:
What a good idea! I am delighted. This might even result in making
portable phones acceptable for me to use.
Can you point me at a page describing the proposal?
What is the Neo900? Is it trying to develop a cell phone
that treats its users ethically? If so, I'd like to see how close
it comes to satisfying these criteria.
* The radio modem should be on a separate chip.
* The main computer should be able to turn the radio modem on and off.
* The microphone and the GPS should be connected to the main computer,
not to the radio modem.
* The software on the main computer should be free -- all of it.
* The radio modem should not be able to control the main computer
or alter its memory.
* It should be designed so that the nothing can alter the radio
modem's own software. This program must not be updatable.
Ideally you should be able to locate cell towers with a directional
antenna and use that antenna to talk with just one tower, so that the
phone network cannot triangulate to find you. But I don't know
whether this is really feasible at all.
in a later email asking form premission to quote..
RMS:
Also please tell them I think the idea of having a one-way pager
system so you know when to make it connect is a very very good idea.
/quote
I will send him the Neo900 update email where he was mentioned.
Last edited by biketool; 2013-12-16 at 19:35.
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2013-12-16
, 18:11
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Posts: 257 |
Thanked: 2,053 times |
Joined on Sep 2010
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#1507
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Originally Posted by biketool
For the reference: all those criterias are satisfied except one: "It should be designed so that the nothing can alter the radio
* The radio modem should be on a separate chip.
* The main computer should be able to turn the radio modem on and off.
* The microphone and the GPS should be connected to the main computer,
not to the radio modem.
* The software on the main computer should be free -- all of it.
* The radio modem should not be able to control the main computer
or alter its memory.
* It should be designed so that the nothing can alter the radio
modem's own software. This program must not be updatable
modem's own software. This program must not be updatable."
It is upgradable and we fail to see any reason why it shouldn't. Every possible threat about backdooring the device will be still present even if upgrading is somehow blocked. What's more, if the modem manufacturer would give us some way to block flashing the ROM, how would we know that he's didn't put any backdoor there as well?
We believe that it's better for user freedom to give him/her the ability to upgrade the firmware. We're convinced that any effort to make sure that "nothing can alter the radio modem's own software" is futile, because it would need us to trust the manufacturer anyway - and if we would trust the manufacturer, we wouldn't have to block it at all. We're proposing tight monitoring of what modem does instead. More about that in the article
(there's also GPS integrated with the modem, but it can be blocked from software and odds are that we'll also provide an option with second GPS chip - see http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/526/ )
PS. Even if I won't use the pager at all, I find it really great idea!
__________________
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
Last edited by dos1; 2013-12-16 at 18:20.
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2013-12-16
, 21:52
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Posts: 6,447 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#1509
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Since we have descended to the level of rant anyway...
Isn't the main idea*) of "free" software a freedom of choice? Doesn't seeking the approval of oneführer man, however charismatic, go directly against that idea?
Some people like calling the users of certain commercial operating systems "sheep". I am sorry but if you are not grown up enough to make up your own mind about which [software | OS | computer | mobile phone | pair of underpants] is "acceptable" but need Mr Stallman or anyone else to tell you then I think we have someone better suitable to carry the title.
*) Alright, maybe not main, but at least one of the ideas.
EDIT: The above is by no means meant to diminish Mr Stallman's or anyone else's contributions and achievemnts. It is aimed squarely at those who say, "I don't know if I like it, I need to go and ask XY's opinion first."
Last edited by pichlo; 2013-12-16 at 22:04.
Isn't the main idea*) of "free" software a freedom of choice? Doesn't seeking the approval of one
Some people like calling the users of certain commercial operating systems "sheep". I am sorry but if you are not grown up enough to make up your own mind about which [software | OS | computer | mobile phone | pair of underpants] is "acceptable" but need Mr Stallman or anyone else to tell you then I think we have someone better suitable to carry the title.
*) Alright, maybe not main, but at least one of the ideas.
EDIT: The above is by no means meant to diminish Mr Stallman's or anyone else's contributions and achievemnts. It is aimed squarely at those who say, "I don't know if I like it, I need to go and ask XY's opinion first."
Last edited by pichlo; 2013-12-16 at 22:04.
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2013-12-16
, 22:03
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Posts: 634 |
Thanked: 3,266 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Colombia
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#1510
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Originally Posted by joerg_rw
Jörg,
Wicket,
Mr Stallman mailed me, asking about all the FSF rules and if they are satisfied by Neo900. I answered that all are met but the modem firmware update that we will offer (according to what the modem module can do: update firmware via USB), that we can't change that since we can't evaluate the hardware internals to make sure whatever we do will reliably forbid manipulations to the firmware (write-enable pins may not have the expected effect, even if they existed), and that I think the firmware must be considered "rogue" by definition (you never know what's in there, even on genuine firmware) and thus we follow another approach of tight monitoring of the modem's activities from very beginning, which will tell us when the modem misbehaves even with genuine firmware.
I received no answer to that from Mr Stallman yet, after one week.
So that's what you might assume is what FSF and Mr Stallman think about Neo900:
They like our project since it's striving for freedom and openness, but they don't want to further care about it and answer to us, when we can't fulfill their requirements, even when those requirements are impossible to fulfill.
Here a complete quote of my 2 original answers to first and second mail from Mr Stallman (I received and answered 2nd mail first, thus my answer to 1st mail refers to my answer to 2nd):
And here as an example a complete quote of my answer to another mail I received at 2013-12-07 03:58 from "anon" user [color and bold added by me for this post]:
Thanks for the detailed reply and for once again providing full transparency.
> If the modem firmware can't be changed, it is effectively in ROM, so
> it might as well be a circuit. It doesn't need to be considered
> as software. For instance, the FSF can disregard it when judging
> whether to endorse a product.
__________________
DebiaN900 - Native Debian on the N900. Deprecated in favour of Maemo Leste.
Maemo Leste for N950 and N9 (currently broken).
Devuan for N950 and N9.
Mobile devices with mainline Linux support - Help needed with documentation.
"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." - Henry Spencer
Maemo Leste for N950 and N9 (currently broken).
Devuan for N950 and N9.
Mobile devices with mainline Linux support - Help needed with documentation.
"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." - Henry Spencer
The appeal of such a unique feature might result in extra sales also..