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Poll: How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB
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How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB

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dos1 is offline dos1
2013-12-17 , 09:54
Posts: 257 | Thanked: 2,053 times | Joined on Sep 2010 @ Warsaw, Poland
#1521
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
False dichotomy. You could give the option to upgrade the firmware AND be endorsed by the FSF: create and ship a free firmware for the modem.
No, we can't. Even if we had the resources to do so (which we don't), it would be illegal to use it in most jurisdictions on the world. Operating the device without certification on public networks is illegal, and certification is made for hardware+software combo - after changing anything in the software, certification is revoked. And if you can't change the firmware, you still have to trust us that the compiled code in the device and provided source code matches.

As much as we would like to have the free modem, there's just no way we can do it. It'd need lots of legal lobbying and hundreds times more resources than we have now. Sorry.

The best thing you can legally get right now is OsmocomBB on TI Calypso in your own GSM lab with permission from regulation entity from your country.
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juiceme is offline juiceme
2013-12-17 , 10:06
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#1522
Actually I don't see a real roadblock here regarding FSF's position.

You should easily be able to arrange the device so that there's no firmware provided by default, so that it is up to the user to download and flash the CMT firmware if she so requires.

Without the non-free FW, the device should still operate as a nice handheld computing platform and if included/expanded with the passive receiver mr. Stallman proposes it would still be very useful device.
 

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dos1 is offline dos1
2013-12-17 , 10:13
Posts: 257 | Thanked: 2,053 times | Joined on Sep 2010 @ Warsaw, Poland
#1523
Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
You should easily be able to arrange the device so that there's no firmware provided by default, so that it is up to the user to download and flash the CMT firmware if she so requires.
It's all nice, except that after flashing, the usage of such modem by user in public networks would be illegal.

Also, we're not producing the modem, we don't have *any* access to what's inside modem module. We can't "easily arrange the device" to change anything inside the modem - we can only take modules exactly as big manufacturers offer them. If there was some obvious solution, we would already go for it - and I trust the experience of Joerg (Openmoko) and Nikolaus (Golden Delicious). Both of them believe in freedom as we all do and both of them already made devices that aspired to be named as "free" in the past. I believe that any simple solution as that was already evaluated by them while working on Neo1973, Neo Freerunner, GTA04 and some other, eventually cancelled, devices.
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Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2013-12-17 , 10:19
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#1524
Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
Actually I don't see a real roadblock here regarding FSF's position.

You should easily be able to arrange the device so that there's no firmware provided by default, so that it is up to the user to download and flash the CMT firmware if she so requires.

Without the non-free FW, the device should still operate as a nice handheld computing platform and if included/expanded with the passive receiver mr. Stallman proposes it would still be very useful device.
BRILLIANT!!!!

Dos1 is mistaken here - since all modems and also our Cinterion modem are heavily tivoized nowadays (means you CANNOT load firmware that's not signed by modem manufacturer's crypto key), we actually could ask Cinterion to simply erase "the firmware" on the modules we receive from them, and we provide the officially supported firmware flasher and firmware (C)&signed-off Cinterion.
However let me say that I have a hard time believing that our customers would appreciate such a move. And it sounds like sophism towards FSF rules "the firmware must not be changeable" - "so fine, we don't have any firmware in that device, so flashing a new one is not `changing the firmwareŽ since there is no firmware to change"
We could send a device without modem mounted to FSF for evaluation - if it actually was worth the effort (which I still doubt)
It all boils down to FSF not approving devices with GSM radio, no matter what you do, since FSF is not about privacy and user freedom but about Free Software. The approach to demand the impossible to force industry into the right direction is maybe idealistically a politically correct thing to do (though I think it's hybris), but it for sure fails for small projects like Neo900. Thus I'm not willing to worry further about FSF approval, it can't be done.

PS: on a sidenote - I wonder how many of the peripherals in Mr Stallman's recommended laptop still have some firmware that only nobody except the manufacturer knows about it and how to update it. Definitely all HDD and optical drives, all touchpads and mice and probably a lot of other subsystems have such "hidden firmware". What if eventually somebody - maybe even in FOSS community - finds out about a way to flash new random stuff to those controllers' firmware storage? Will the laptop then lose the FSF approval?

PS2: for now our modem has no way "anybody" could change the firmware, since we don't know about the flasher tool needed to do such firmware update, and for sure we won't ship the device with such tool.
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-12-17 at 10:46.
 

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javispedro is offline javispedro
2013-12-17 , 10:35
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#1525
Originally Posted by dos1 View Post
No, we can't. Even if we had the resources to do so (which we don't), it would be illegal to use it in most jurisdictions on the world. Operating the device without certification on public networks is illegal, and certification is made for hardware+software combo - after changing anything in the software, certification is revoked. And if you can't change the firmware, you still have to trust us that the compiled code in the device and provided source code matches.
Then there is no need for this firmware to actually connect to any known GSM network in the world.

But If you think that joerg_rw/OpenPhoenux/Goldelico are going to be responsible for users upgrading their firmware, then why did you mention that "it's better for user freedom to give him/her the ability to upgrade the firmware"? In this case, it's better to just source a modem with non-upgradable firmware or just blow some fuses so that it is not upgradable. Apart from increased legal protection, you would also get FSF endorsement!

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
Dos1 is mistaken here - since all modems and also our Cinterion modem are heavily tivoized nowadays (means you CANNOT load firmware that's not signed by modem manufacturer's crypto key), we actually could ask Cinterion to simply erase "the firmware" on the modules we receive from them, and we provide the officially supported firmware flasher and firmware (C)&signed-off Cinterion.
I suspect this won't fly because you are missing the "open firmware" part (and I do not think that a null firmware would be valid -- I suppose it would need to generate at least some signal ).

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
The approach to demand the impossible to force industry into the right direction is maybe idealistically a politically correct thing to do (though I think it's hybris), but it for sure fails for small projects like Neo900. Thus I'm not willing to worry further about FSF approval, it can't be done.
Since funding is at stake here, I agree.
Much to my disappointment, people these days do not accept PDAs for some reason... I would.
 

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malkavian is offline malkavian
2013-12-17 , 10:41
Posts: 461 | Thanked: 358 times | Joined on May 2010 @ Bilbao (Basque Country [Spain])
#1526
I insist. What about talking FSF about a hard-modem-monitoring-and-controlling (TM) XD ? That proposition is better for privacy than any other solution (except having the ability to upload a free-sourced firmware) and I think that it would satisfy even to more paranoid people.
 
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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2013-12-17 , 10:50
Posts: 2,222 | Thanked: 12,651 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3
#1527
Originally Posted by malkavian View Post
I insist. What about talking FSF about a hard-modem-monitoring-and-controlling (TM) XD ? That proposition is better for privacy than any other solution (except having the ability to upload a free-sourced firmware) and I think that it would satisfy even to more paranoid people.
Please note that FSF is NOT about privacy, it's about Free Software! They don't basically care about privacy as long as their primary requirement "full FOSS" isn't met. They claim (rightfully) that FOSS is a warranty for privacy (if somebody actually inspects the code), but their primary goal is FOSS and privacy comes with that as a side effect - so no FOSS, no relevance in any of the secondry effects achieved by any other means.

You know what just occurred to me? GolDeliCo shipped the GTA04 with NO OS AT ALL, so I wonder how and what the FSF would ever approve for that hardware (aviation approval for submarines?).
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-12-17 at 11:14.
 

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malkavian is offline malkavian
2013-12-17 , 11:20
Posts: 461 | Thanked: 358 times | Joined on May 2010 @ Bilbao (Basque Country [Spain])
#1528
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
Please note that FSF is NOT about privacy, it's about Free Software! They don't basically care about privacy as long as their primary requirement "full FOSS" isn't met.
So they are suggesting that not to be able to modify the firmware equals it to part of the hardware? That would be stupid. While the firmware is not FOSS there is a problem.

Not letting update it would just be a way to monitoring just one firmware version, easing the control, but no more.
 

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petur is offline petur
2013-12-17 , 11:33
Posts: 650 | Thanked: 497 times | Joined on Oct 2008 @ Ghent, Belgium
#1529
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
PS: on a sidenote - I wonder how many of the peripherals in Mr Stallman's recommended laptop still have some firmware that only nobody except the manufacturer knows about it and how to update it. Definitely all HDD and optical drives, all touchpads and mice and probably a lot of other subsystems have such "hidden firmware". What if eventually somebody - maybe even in FOSS community - finds out about a way to flash new random stuff to those controllers' firmware storage? Will the laptop then lose the FSF approval?
You mean something like this?
http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack

This guy patched the firmware of a HDD to trigger on a certain magic string, and replace content from a certain file with his own after the trigger. Long story short: he used this trick to gain root access on a linux system.

</OT>
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dos1 is offline dos1
2013-12-17 , 11:41
Posts: 257 | Thanked: 2,053 times | Joined on Sep 2010 @ Warsaw, Poland
#1530
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
Then there is no need for this firmware to actually connect to any known GSM network in the world.
Yes, but then we can't really sell or promote is as a phone.

Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
But If you think that joerg_rw/OpenPhoenux/Goldelico are going to be responsible for users upgrading their firmware, then why did you mention that "it's better for user freedom to give him/her the ability to upgrade the firmware"? In this case, it's better to just source a modem with non-upgradable firmware or just blow some fuses so that it is not upgradable. Apart from increased legal protection, you would also get FSF endorsement!
RE potential. Even if using stuff like OsmocomBB with public network is illegal, there are still some legitimate uses. If someday the firmware will be reverse engineered, I'd prefer to have the option to flash it to play with my lab network (but I suppose it's strictly theoretical anyway, due to tivoisation...)

But that's not the point. The point was that blowing those fuses won't increase your privacy at all. It was requested in context of possible backdoors, which IMO doesn't make much sense.

When it comes to freedom, FSF has its right to define "free software friendly" hardware anyway they like. The discussion as I see it started from the privacy aspect and argumentation from RMS e-mail.

But I fear this discussion turned out to some kind of mess :P It's hard to tell what everyone is referring to ;x
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Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
Last edited by dos1; 2013-12-17 at 11:43.
 

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