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2011-02-23
, 00:37
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Posts: 69 |
Thanked: 41 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Sweden
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#1662
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Originally Posted by mishmich
Yes, but as you probably know, a decade working on unix is a pretty short time. It's been around since the '70s and there's always room for improvement.
You assume a lot.
I worked on UNIX for ten years, using the command line exclusively, writing shell scripts, etc
Originally Posted by mishmich
If you can't stand hacking, it's not for you.
- and cannot stand hacking (personally).
Hacking is sort of a requirement for being a developer.
Originally Posted by mishmich
I'd say the unix world is pretty much the only place where you'll find accurate documentation. (instead of stupidity like "how to use help", or "how to plug in an AC cord")
If things are not documented, and do not work the way they are documented, they are not finished.
Originally Posted by mishmich
What's ironic, is that people think that openness means it's everything for them specifically.
And obviously I do not know much about Maemo or MeeGo - how would I with the sort of attitudes you express? It is one of the ironies about 'openness' that it is so obscure, that people seem to think that is a virtue.
Mish.
Even more ironically, people pay a lot of money, but don't demand anything of commercial software.
With free software, if you don't like it, you can always fix it yourself or pay someone.
I'm fed up of people whining about not being spoonfed.
Try meego, look at the code, fix stuff if it doesn't work, that's the stage it's at.
If you want to use meego like a nintendo, wait or buy something else, and buy meego products when they're ready for computer-illiterate end-users.
Or, you could just use Maemo now, since it currently has more useful software than any other phone anyways.
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2011-02-23
, 01:56
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Posts: 248 |
Thanked: 191 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ New Zealand
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#1663
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Originally Posted by Funklord
Yes, but this was in response to your comment about Windows.
Yes, but as you probably know, a decade working on unix is a pretty short time. It's been around since the '70s and there's always room for improvement.
Originally Posted by Funklord
Not really - it may be a requirement for some developers, and buggy software.
If you can't stand hacking, it's not for you.
Hacking is sort of a requirement for being a developer.
Originally Posted by Funklord
Yes, it is, beyond man pages, you will find that quality commercial UNIX software like Oracle or Informix documentation takes up about a foot of bookshelf (or did when it was supplied as hard copy). But, I recall a lot of software that left developers poorly documented and that had to be hacked to get it to work in the real world; somebody had to wipe their arses.
I'd say the unix world is pretty much the only place where you'll find accurate documentation. (instead of stupidity like "how to use help", or "how to plug in an AC cord")
Originally Posted by Funklord
A lot of open-source software leaves developers poorly documented; I guess it is because nobody wipes arses for free, most people who enjoy coding focus on what they are best at, and the time available is constrained.
What's ironic, is that people think that openness means it's everything for them specifically.
Originally Posted by Funklord
I agree, although the main reason I dislike it is I don't see it as value for money.
Even more ironically, people pay a lot of money, but don't demand anything of commercial software.
Originally Posted by Funklord
Exactly - yet you are not willing to support those who are interested in doing this. Instead, you (and a lot of linux devotees) seem more interested in keeping an appearance on it being arcane. People rail against Microsoft (as they did back in the Windows 3.1 days) yet they revolutionised computing with their buggy software to the point that there is now a PC in nearly every home. Why is that so many linux people do little to try and win over people, often coming across as snobbish and arrogant?
With free software, if you don't like it, you can always fix it yourself or pay someone.
Look at your responses - do you think that is likely to encourage people, or put them off?
'Linux is great - but screw you if you need help with it - work it out for yourself - you are not worthy.' That is a great strategy for challenging Microsoft (& Apple).
Originally Posted by Funklord
I do. And I do intend to - but, finding where to start, that is another issue. The Maemo SDK didn't install properly - as I have mentioned elsewhere. Threw up lots of errors, warned of unregistered components, and threw up messages about being 'haxored'. So, I am unclear whether it did install correctly, but could find no documentation that would help work out what the problem with the installation procedure might be. I have raised this as an issue - wondering whether there is some problem with the repositories. As yet I have seen no response to that. I am unable to check whether what is in the repos is what should be - or why following the install procedure (which has no choices evident), should throw up errors that appear have nothing to do with the target, but the installation process.
I'm fed up of people whining about not being spoonfed.
Try meego, look at the code, fix stuff if it doesn't work, that's the stage it's at.
If you want to use meego like a nintendo, wait or buy something else, and buy meego products when they're ready for computer-illiterate end-users.
Or, you could just use Maemo now, since it currently has more useful software than any other phone anyways.
The Ubuntu & Nokia QT installations worked fine - but they are outside the Maemo repositories.
I haven't looked at the MeeGo development installation process, but I am interested to see how that goes.
And, BTW, I am fed up of people avoiding dealing with things that don't work - by laying the blame on the person trying to use it. "I'll do what I like, and If it doesn't work, you can fix it". No wonder corporate and community developers are at each others throats over at MeeGo, blaming each other for failures to deliver.
Mish.
Last edited by mishmich; 2011-02-23 at 02:00. Reason: irrelevant
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2011-02-23
, 04:30
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Posts: 248 |
Thanked: 191 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ New Zealand
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#1664
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Found the MeeGo Netbook SDK download on the Nokia site (which is apparently smaller than the handset), but it hung at 30.6 MB of a 450MB download. Maybe try again when I get fixed line broadband.
Mish.
Mish.
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2011-02-23
, 05:35
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Posts: 69 |
Thanked: 41 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Sweden
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#1665
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Originally Posted by mishmich
I'm not yet entirely happy with the way Maemo or Meego SDKs are being laid out.
I do. And I do intend to - but, finding where to start, that is another issue. The Maemo SDK didn't install properly - as I have mentioned elsewhere. Threw up lots of errors, warned of unregistered components, and threw up messages about being 'haxored'. So, I am unclear whether it did install correctly, but could find no documentation that would help work out what the problem with the installation procedure might be. I have raised this as an issue - wondering whether there is some problem with the repositories. As yet I have seen no response to that. I am unable to check whether what is in the repos is what should be - or why following the install procedure (which has no choices evident), should throw up errors that appear have nothing to do with the target, but the installation process.
Sometimes a non-dev distro like Ubuntu is slightly harder to set up for them than for example gentoo, slackware or debian.
You may be missing something that can be assumed to be installed when using a more typical dev-distro, and therefore it's not documented?
I'm just guessing, since I don't know what problem you encountered.
Anyhow, crosscompiling is always a headache, unless you use something like crossdev on gentoo. (I refuse to use pre-built toolchains; the toolchain build process has to be reproducible, since this allows you to fix issues related to the toolchain)
If you want to make software for Meego + Maemo in Qt, it's really as simple as making it work on Qt on your PC. Then somebody else can easily package it for Maemo.
Just make sure the program works on a tiny screen and a single mouse button that is always pushed while the cursor moves, and avoid things that take a lot of space or resources, and maybe some other things I can't think of now.
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2011-02-23
, 05:53
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Posts: 963 |
Thanked: 626 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
@ Connecticut, USA
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#1666
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@mishmich
Comparing the level of polish and breath of documentation in open source projects with that of closed proprietary systems is simply comparing apples with oranges. With open source you get to see the work of the developer/s, including their documentation, if any, as it is born and thruoughout its development, for free. And if you find a way to menetize it you are welcome to. Many have. Some projects are able to produce great documentation, many times quite better than what you normally get with closed source. Others don't seem to ever be able to do so. Of course, for those projects you can always go to the source if needed. That is jut the way it is. Be grateful that someone has actally coded something you can benefit from.
Constructive criticism and bug reports are always appreciated. But if you start going off about how much you prefer the quality of the closed proprietary systems, don't expect a lot of sympathy. You can either go back to your proprietay world, work to improve the quality of the project you are interested, do your own, or pay someone to do it for you. Be real. Do you think that the documentation on the proprietary products appeared magically? Of course not. Someone was paid to produce them. And you had to wait until the developers were ready to show it to you. And you don't get to see the source code. So, advantages and disadvantages, apples and oranges. Please spare us your rants.
Last edited by rm42; 2011-02-23 at 06:00.
Comparing the level of polish and breath of documentation in open source projects with that of closed proprietary systems is simply comparing apples with oranges. With open source you get to see the work of the developer/s, including their documentation, if any, as it is born and thruoughout its development, for free. And if you find a way to menetize it you are welcome to. Many have. Some projects are able to produce great documentation, many times quite better than what you normally get with closed source. Others don't seem to ever be able to do so. Of course, for those projects you can always go to the source if needed. That is jut the way it is. Be grateful that someone has actally coded something you can benefit from.
Constructive criticism and bug reports are always appreciated. But if you start going off about how much you prefer the quality of the closed proprietary systems, don't expect a lot of sympathy. You can either go back to your proprietay world, work to improve the quality of the project you are interested, do your own, or pay someone to do it for you. Be real. Do you think that the documentation on the proprietary products appeared magically? Of course not. Someone was paid to produce them. And you had to wait until the developers were ready to show it to you. And you don't get to see the source code. So, advantages and disadvantages, apples and oranges. Please spare us your rants.
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Last edited by rm42; 2011-02-23 at 06:00.
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2011-02-23
, 06:07
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Posts: 302 |
Thanked: 254 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
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#1667
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Haven't seen this posted here yet... An expansive blog autopsy on Nokia's corporate culture (managerial failures) by the former head of design direction for user interface and services (2008-2010), Adam Greenfield:
Nokia: Culture will out
If you appreciated the insider insights in the Risku Manifest, you'll appreciate this one too.
The people who kept this stifling circus running (or crawling rather) are the ones who resorted to hiring e-flop and who are now sacking the habitually disenfranchised Nokia developers en masse and handing over control over their platform to the universally distrusted mobile minnows MS...
Nokia: Culture will out
If you appreciated the insider insights in the Risku Manifest, you'll appreciate this one too.
The people who kept this stifling circus running (or crawling rather) are the ones who resorted to hiring e-flop and who are now sacking the habitually disenfranchised Nokia developers en masse and handing over control over their platform to the universally distrusted mobile minnows MS...
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2011-02-23
, 07:16
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Posts: 248 |
Thanked: 191 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ New Zealand
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#1668
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Originally Posted by rm42
I wasn't ranting - everything I said was in response to things said by others. And you assume I have some brief for proprietary software. I don't - I am very sad that there is no open source equivalent to MaximDL, or Paintshop CS, etc.
@mishmich
Comparing the level of polish and breath of documentation in open source projects with that of closed proprietary systems is simply comparing apples with oranges. With open source you get to see the work of the developer/s, including their documentation, if any, as it is born and thruoughout its development, for free. And if you find a way to menetize it you are welcome to. Many have. Some projects are able to produce great documentation, many times quite better than what you normally get with closed source. Others don't seem to ever be able to do so. Of course, for those projects you can always go to the source if needed. That is jut the way it is. Be grateful that someone has actally coded something you can benefit from.
Constructive criticism and bug reports are always appreciated. But if you start going off about how much you prefer the quality of the closed proprietary systems, don't expect a lot of sympathy. You can either go back to your proprietay world, work to improve the quality of the project you are interested, do your own, or pay someone to do it for you. Be real. Do you think that the documentation on the proprietary products appeared magically? Of course not. Someone was paid to produce them. And you had to wait until the developers were ready to show it to you. And you don't get to see the source code. So, advantages and disadvantages, apples and oranges. Please spare us your rants.
Of course you get to see the code if you work in an environment that develops proprietary systems. It would be difficult to work in such an environment otherwise (unless one is an accountant or receptionist or manager)
I did not say I prefer the quality of closed systems. I said I prefer the documentation. There are exceptions - for example Drupal is well documented. And while lot of proprietary software comes with good documentation, following the steps may not produce the required result - and it is only when you go on an expensive training course for the product that you find out that things are missed out from the documentation. This means that not only do you (or your employer) have the privilege of paying exorbitant sums for the software - a double-whammy - you have to pay again to attend a course that imparts the knowledge you need to actually use it.
Mish.
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2011-02-23
, 07:18
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Posts: 3 |
Thanked: 1 time |
Joined on Feb 2011
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#1669
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this is what nokia told me on facebook .....
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2011-02-23
, 07:52
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Posts: 3,159 |
Thanked: 2,023 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
@ Finland
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#1670
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Originally Posted by sucharitha
having a dream about elves talking about N900 support would be million times more trustworthy....
this is what nokia told me on facebook .....
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| Tags |
| bye-nokia, i don't even, just shoot him, just shoot me, let's elope, lockdown, meego?fail, negatron dan, nokia defiled, nokia suicide, sell tulips, step 8 out of 5, the-end?, www.elop.org |
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All times are GMT. The time now is 23:43.
The problem:
Nokia needs, not one, but two Meego phones released pronto! A straight forward and uncomplicated one that is nice and slim without a keyboard. And a follow up to the N900 with all the bells and whistles that the N900 had and more. That should prop up sales and keep the income coming until Windows phone finishes cooking.
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