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	volt	2012-07-07 , 13:17
	Posts: 1,309 \| Thanked: 1,187 times \| Joined on Nov 2008	#1771

Wow, look at that 5 day graph. https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp...YSE:NOK&ntsp=0

That's down 10% in five work days. At that trend, it'd be 1.40 in three weeks. Or if you look at the previous month, down a dollar, that'd be 1 dollar around next month.

IF Elop was right and ttly saved Nokia by pissing all over Symbian and firing everybody who worked with innovation, you could jump in and make a fortune now. Ahaha. Haha. HAHAHA.

No.

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specc	2012-07-07 , 14:08
Posts: 322 \| Thanked: 218 times \| Joined on Feb 2012	#1772

Originally Posted by SamGan

I seriously doubt it. Smart money has left Nokia stock long ago and this means the long term, non-speculative, savvy investors. Most pension funds and institutional investors have rules to cut losses if stocks go below a certain point.

I don't know where you are from, but where I'm from the private initiative and enterprise is always king. Companies aren't ruled by the stock market, the are ruled by people. The stock market is mainly just a mechanism to place investments, to spread your risk and capital and get a higher return than putting money in a bank or purchase gold and diamonds. In return, the companies get fresh cash. And of course lots of people speculate.

With the results Nokia have, fresh capital from the stock market is out of the question in any case. This means that the stock is irrelevant. The only way for Nokia to survive is the current major investors don't loose faith, at least not before they start earning money again. If they run out of money, then the only hope is that the investors inject some, which I believe they will if it comes to that. But they typically won't do that before the company is slimmed to the bone.

If you believe that Nokia will make it, now is the time to invest. But that is high risk speculation. The current main investors aren't doing that, they are trying to make it work. They are interesting in Nokia making profit, and are in a position to guide the ship. They are in for the long run, with no intentions of jumping ship if/when the stock price rises.

mikecomputing	2012-07-07 , 14:50
Posts: 3,464 \| Thanked: 5,107 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gothenburg in Sweden	#1773

Originally Posted by danramos

Umm... it's just a login page.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85315

Lumiaman	2012-07-07 , 17:49
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Just bought some more NOKIA at $1.97 good US dollars. I think they will do well with WP8, and that is my bet.

	danramos	2012-07-07 , 21:54
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#1775

Originally Posted by mikecomputing

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85315

Well! Now this is kinda hopeful, but with a history of dashed hopes and ruined potential, I'm not holding a lot of optimism just yet. Still.. this is definitely interesting to watch.

Thanks for that post!

Originally Posted by Lumiaman

Just bought some more NOKIA at $1.97 good US dollars. I think they will do well with WP8, and that is my bet.

But I thought you already said they will do well with Windows Phone 7 back when they burned their platforms and decided to jump onto the Microsoft platform? How are we to believe you now?

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gerbick	2012-07-07 , 22:02
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Originally Posted by danramos

But I thought you already said they will do well with Windows Phone 7 back when they burned their platforms and decided to jump onto the Microsoft platform? How are we to believe you now?

He sounds like Elop. "WP7, ecosystem, it has it. Oh wait, that won't upgrade. So WP8 for the win!"

Cue	2012-07-08 , 02:17
Posts: 840 \| Thanked: 823 times \| Joined on Nov 2009	#1777

Originally Posted by specc

It doesn't work like that. A big investor set the terms and is often a participant at board level. Who do you took the final decision that Nokia should go all WP? The board. To go WP may even have been the main term for continued investment by the main investers. How the "industry" reacts means nothing, what the stock price becomes means nothing. The only thing that matters is to stay focused and make it happen. Go for the possibilities, the oppurtunities.

I understand that the board make the decisions and that large stakeholders run things. What I don't understand is how an investor is not speculating if they "believe" that it will turn a profit. Still confused by the explanation. Are you explaining primary capital markets? What exactly do you mean by a big investor? How the public (or "industry" as you call it) reacts is of great importance in securing capital. The risk will always be there for the large investors who do the underwriting, or the individual stakeholder with or without privileges. Staying focused and making it happen stops when you run out of money and securing that money is based on risk. Nokia's "Junk status" is in fact a measure of this risk, when it hits BB+ it becomes "speculative grade", when it goes below (which it has done), it means it's high risk, don't invest if you plan to profit with a degree of certainty.

http://www.standardandpoors.com/rati...nd-faqs/en/us/

Last edited by Cue; 2012-07-08 at 10:18.

	danramos	2012-07-08 , 09:53
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#1778

Originally Posted by gerbick

He sounds like Elop. "WP7, ecosystem, it has it. Oh wait, that won't upgrade. So WP8 for the win!"

No, really! This time for SURE!

specc	2012-07-09 , 02:25
Posts: 322 \| Thanked: 218 times \| Joined on Feb 2012	#1779

Originally Posted by Cue

I understand that the board make the decisions and that large stakeholders run things. What I don't understand is how an investor is not speculating if they "believe" that it will turn a profit. Still confused by the explanation. Are you explaining primary capital markets? What exactly do you mean by a big investor? How the public (or "industry" as you call it) reacts is of great importance in securing capital. The risk will always be there for the large investors who do the underwriting, or the individual stakeholder with or without privileges. Staying focused and making it happen stops when you run out of money and securing that money is based on risk. Nokia's "Junk status" is in fact a measure of this risk, when it hits BB+ it becomes "speculative grade", when it goes below (which it has done), it means it's high risk, don't invest if you plan to profit with a degree of certainty.

http://www.standardandpoors.com/rati...nd-faqs/en/us/

You are mixing two things, running/owning a company and investing your money in the stock market. If the main investors at Nokia simply was looking for a place to invest their money, they would be out a long time ago. Clearly they have other objectives. That objective is a genuine one, and it is to make Nokia a healthy company in the mobile industry, a top world wide producer of phones and services.

You can compare it to F1 racing, another multi billion industry. You can bet on the teams (stock market), you can do commercials, media, arrange races. There is a whole lot you can do, and last but not least, you can invest in a team as the main investor, be the financial backbone of a F1 team. Typically they are are car manufacturers, but they can be anything, and several are pure private companies doing nothing but racing. The only reason to do this, is because you have a passion for F1 racing. It's the same thing with the main Nokia investors, they have a passion for the mobile industry, or simply a passion for Nokia. A main investor wouldn't just quit because the team have a few bad seasons, not even if the team is in a steep down hill run, he would commit even more until they manage to turn it around or death is certain.

The private initiative and enterprise is king. The bean counters in the stock market means nothing, they are playing a whole different game.

Cue	2012-07-09 , 09:04
Posts: 840 \| Thanked: 823 times \| Joined on Nov 2009	#1780

Originally Posted by specc

You are mixing two things, running/owning a company and investing your money in the stock market. If the main investors at Nokia simply was looking for a place to invest their money, they would be out a long time ago. Clearly they have other objectives. That objective is a genuine one, and it is to make Nokia a healthy company in the mobile industry, a top world wide producer of phones and services.

You can compare it to F1 racing, another multi billion industry. You can bet on the teams (stock market), you can do commercials, media, arrange races. There is a whole lot you can do, and last but not least, you can invest in a team as the main investor, be the financial backbone of a F1 team. Typically they are are car manufacturers, but they can be anything, and several are pure private companies doing nothing but racing. The only reason to do this, is because you have a passion for F1 racing. It's the same thing with the main Nokia investors, they have a passion for the mobile industry, or simply a passion for Nokia. A main investor wouldn't just quit because the team have a few bad seasons, not even if the team is in a steep down hill run, he would commit even more until they manage to turn it around or death is certain.

The private initiative and enterprise is king. The bean counters in the stock market means nothing, they are playing a whole different game.

Passion and politics, I get that investment isn't always about money. Being one of very few in Europe also helps Nokia.
I don't expect the major stakeholders to give up either if it's their jobs on the line. I didn't mix up the two though, I used the term stakeholder and specifically mentioned earlier "that is if you are in it for the profit". You mentioned them as big investors, not those who own/run the company so I asked you to clarify what you mean by the term "big investor".

Still, for Nokia employees, passion means nothing if you have a costly hobby that somebody else is funding. It's actually mostly the major investors you mention that do not care for "passion". Just look at your own example of F1 if maemo itself wasn't enough. The Jaguar F1 team (no longer exists). Ford was the big investor behind that team. Ford did not want to invest in the Jaguar team anymore because it was costly and they received no direct advertising. The "owners"/employees of that team became Red Bull Racing, its "big investor" changed as did the team name, it was now Red Bull.

If you wish you can get into the philosophy of what "Nokia" actually is. The name? the people behind the product? The big investors? Highly passionate companies do go under every day, or their names or investors may change but clearly the people behind it do not die when the company name does. If that's what you are saying then you are stating the obvious.

Nokia don't even seem passionate to me anyway so I'm not sure why you even mention it. They are clearly a prime example of "profit at any cost" (oxy*****?). Job cuts and killing their own products (maemo/meego) doesn't scream "passion", it screams CFO trying to get out of the red.

Edit: wow, oxystupid censor has gone too far.

Last edited by Cue; 2012-07-09 at 09:08.