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qole is offline qole
2008-11-02 , 20:17
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#181
I hope the movement towards standardization in Maemo means we'll get standard desktop elements; the background, panels, app menu, theme, icons, etc will be closer to the desktop (Gnome / GTK+) standards for these elements.

As it is, hildon-desktop is this monolithic blob with a fairly non-standard theme engine that provides very little access to those of us who would like to mix-and-match Hildon elements with other desktops. How do I get the Hildon menu to display in XFCE or LXDE? Can I get the icons for nifty Hildon plugins like the presence indicator, or connection manager to show up in other panels, please?

And of course, we've all talked about going the other way. I would like to see other apps being able to run under Maemo without much hassle.

I don't mind if Nokia uses fancy, whizzy graphics or whatever for Fremantle, or builds a nice finger UI, as long as they don't break standards to do it. Please, Nokia, aim for minimal "hildonization" here. If the app follows GTK+ standards, it should be able to use the Hildon input method, it should look "correct" on the maemo / hildon "desktop", it should be able to use the hardware keys, etc., etc...

Again, I want to stress that I think tablet-oriented apps are the ideal here, but I think it should be as painless as possible for developers to port desktop apps to the Maemo world.
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daperl is offline daperl
2008-11-02 , 20:25
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#182
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Finger vs. stylus halves the amount of UI space available for a given UI. It is not possible as a system-wide issue to design UI's for all the applications that would be 'optimal' for both stylus and the finger at the same time, unless nearly doubling the design and implementation effort.
Thanks for p*ssing me off on a Sunday.

<rant>It's thinking like this that gets people's a*ses kicked in the market place. The a*s kicking gets worse the higher up this position trickles down from. Way to follow and not lead. Please try harder 'cause you can bet others will be. This discussion is just beginning and you've already declared it over. We'll send you a postcard.</rant>
 
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tso is offline tso
2008-11-02 , 20:34
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#183
Originally Posted by fpp View Post
tso : Ever tried Maemo Mapper in the car ?
i find maemo mapper a nice program to play around with, but less useful then the map software that comes with recent os versions.

this for the simple reason that maemo mapper have to continually download the maps.

oh, and i own a N800, so no agps or similar for me. and ones the gps gets going, it should not need any more assistance anyways.
Last edited by tso; 2008-11-02 at 20:37.
 
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2008-11-02 , 20:42
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#184
Originally Posted by daperl View Post
Thanks for p*ssing me off on a Sunday.

<rant>It's thinking like this that gets people's a*ses kicked in the market place. The a*s kicking gets worse the higher up this position trickles down from. Way to follow and not lead. Please try harder 'cause you can bet others will be. This discussion is just beginning and you've already declared it over. We'll send you a postcard.</rant>
It's odd that the bit you quoted seems the least contentious bit of ragnar's post: doing more work costs more. Or do you have an idea for a single UI which will meet all the requirements?
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2008-11-02 , 20:44
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#185
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
The only difference is that you're looking forward to a more finger-friendly version of Maemo while I'm keeping my eyes open for other products that can replace my N800 as my mobile computer.
Why can't the "N900" be it? You don't like the UI, change it. If you'd prefer LXDE, KDE, WindowMaker, FluxBox, install it over the top. Nokia have committed to differentiating themselves at the "upper" levels of the stack, and opening as much as possible of the lower levels.

Personally, I'm confident that Maemo 5 (incl. the next generation of Hildon) will be the best UI available for my use cases. YMMV.
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lcuk is offline lcuk
2008-11-02 , 20:46
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#186
Originally Posted by tso View Post
i find maemo mapper a nice program to play around with, but less useful then the map software that comes with recent os versions.

this for the simple reason that maemo mapper have to continually download the maps.

oh, and i own a N800, so no agps or similar for me. and ones the gps gets going, it should not need any more assistance anyways.
agreed in a way, but that in car usage case is representative of issues all over.
I cannot shutoff my network at night when i'm going to bed, or alter the brightness so i can start reading without getting out the stylus.
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2008-11-02 , 21:06
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#187
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
Why can't the "N900" be it? You don't like the UI, change it. If you'd prefer LXDE, KDE, WindowMaker, FluxBox, install it over the top.
This is a hope I still have, in fact. I'm confident that the hardware will be great and that the form factor will be ideal. Nokia does a very good job here, overall (except that they dropped the hard cover that made the 770 the only truly mobile tablet). Maybe it will be simple to run a different UI than Nokia's.

The one reason this strategy might not work as expected is hardware integration. I'd like the LED to flash when there's new mail, and I want a stylus-optimized keyboard to appear when I tap on a text input field. This isn't likely to happen if I replace the whole OS with one that's not written with the tablets hardware in mind. But I'm curious to see how this will turn out and if there'll be options I can't even think of now.
 
SD69 is offline SD69
2008-11-02 , 21:08
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#188
[QUOTE=nilchak;238762]
The NIT is being marketed as a device to get internet access while on the move.
One simple case that I often face -
while driving I put the IT on the car mount, but while driving and keeping an eye on the road and one hand on the steering, it becomes very difficult to even select the network access icon from the top menu and then select the network to connect to - all this while driving, or event o select the volume control icons. I so wish those icons were more finger friendly and visible so that even when mobile one could easily access it.

Those menus on the top are very much stylus oriented and this is what happens when you are using a mobile stylus oriented device when you are actually moving and thus having less freedom (or in similar situations). This is why I much prefer finger friendliness - its only rarely that I am using it propped up on the desktop.
No, we should not design a UI so you can use it while driving. Mobility does not mean driving or on the desktop; it means away from the desktop while out and about.


This is why I don't see much point of a mobile on-the-move device being marketed for mobile usage and form-factor but having a desktop paradigm-ed UI interface.
The existing UI on the NIT is not a desktop paradigmed UI.


And Ragnar explained very well the difficulties of an interface which can support both stylus and finger based widgets and UI simultaneously.
He said it; but he didn't explain it in a way at least that I understand, and especially that it would mean twice the development effort. Le'ts remember that we have had a stylus-based (if you want to call it that) UI for 3 years. As I understand we are going to jettison or dramatically alter most of the existing UI in lieu of a finger friendly UI. Why? What has changed in the last 3 years? Have people's fingers gotten smaller or more nimble or something? It seems to me Ragnar has been talking about rethinking and rearchitecting the UI, which is the most development.

Thanks everyone for the good comments.
Last edited by SD69; 2008-11-02 at 21:21.
 

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qgil is offline qgil
2008-11-02 , 21:15
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#189
Originally Posted by qole View Post
I hope the movement towards standardization in Maemo means we'll get standard desktop elements; the background, panels, app menu, theme, icons, etc will be closer to the desktop (Gnome / GTK+) standards for these elements.
And I hope you file bugs about the non-standard bits in your way, proposing the standard alternative and listing them at http://wiki.maemo.org/Mainstream_Linux_Alignment

Thanks!
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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2008-11-02 , 21:20
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#190
Originally Posted by tso View Post
using the web while driving a car?! is it just me or is that close to criminal carelessness?

the only use of the device while in car, if the user is the driver, is as a gps. at least, thats my opinion.
(Far from it.)

Look up your local law.

First of all, it is hands free. Phoning here is legal, but hands free.

Here, it is legal to polish your nails while driving. It is legal do do your hair while driving. It is legal to eat while driving. It is legal to play with the radio in your car. It is legal to use Carman while driving. Its illegal to use a phone non-hands free though, and if the cops see a phone-like device in your hand they pull you over and check your caller history.

With a finger touch based device its very easy to change a setting. With a stylus in your hand it'd be quite more difficult to hit the right spot while driving, as well as shifting or reattach the steering wheel. No, I can't imagine someone using the stylus to pick a different track in any MP3 player. But in Canola as touch device I can imagine that works easily...
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