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wmarone is offline wmarone
2011-01-21 , 17:41
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#11
Originally Posted by v13 View Post
You didn't get the point: It's not a matter of ARM support. It's a matter of architecture diversity and whether it will attract other phone vendors.
I can't see why it won't. At the very least, it'll mean competition and price reduction in the mobile space.

I don't believe you understand what you're saying here. I'm not asking if it is possible to rebuild everything. I'm asking if it will ever work and if it will be adopted, or whether Nokia has thought about this. Please read previous posts.
I read your posts, and it seems to be mostly wondering if anything not Java can succeed. No one knows at this point if it will be adopted or succeed. But saying that not being VM-based will hinder it is to deny the fact that most *nix based stuff already is cross architecture.

This goes back to the "Store" aspect, which is not supplied by Intel (well maybe, if they adopt an Intel CPU,) Nokia, or "MeeGo" but by the hardware vendor.

As it is replying without first reading the posts. Unless you consider Python as a VM-based language, that's not what I said.
Python could be considered a VM-based language, as it can be "compiled" to some extent.

FWIW, the only available methods for doing this, as far as I know, are:
  • Java / VM based
  • Interpreted languages (Python)
  • LLVM
Sure, if you want to JIT your software.
 
theonelaw is offline theonelaw
2011-01-21 , 17:53
Posts: 671 | Thanked: 1,630 times | Joined on Aug 2010
#12
Originally Posted by v13 View Post
Well sure. But it's another thing to add some "if"s or configs in the code and another one to distribute different binary packages. For example, if N9 comes with meego and it has an ARM CPU and 1000 community-based apps are created and then HTC introduces another MeeGo phone with different CPU, *all* apps need to be recompiled. Do you see the problem? Why would HTC use MeeGo in that case since there will be no available apps at all (at the beggining - which is the crucial point) for its new phone?
Gee - I download tgz files all the time and compile them on my distro and hardware
which is virtually always different from the distro and hardware it was developed on.

And most of the time it just works.
When it doesn't, I lose a few hairs, but nevermind.

As long as the file structure, APIs, etc are all the same I don't see a problem.
They aren't necessarily talking about compiled apps,
and if they are then whoever mandates that paints themselves
out of the marketplace.
It is the closed-source compiled apps with trojans and other malware
that are driving the Android trainwreck
into a place where your sexy new android handphone
may not be welcome on some corporate networks.
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Last edited by theonelaw; 2011-01-21 at 17:56. Reason: correction
 
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Copernicus is offline Copernicus
2011-01-21 , 17:54
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#13
Originally Posted by v13 View Post
For example, if N9 comes with meego and it has an ARM CPU and 1000 community-based apps are created and then HTC introduces another MeeGo phone with different CPU, *all* apps need to be recompiled. Do you see the problem?
I see the difference; but I don't really see it as a problem. If you're developing commercial closed-source software, you don't actually want people casually copying your software from device to device, and so the inability to run your binary on a new cpu (without you recompiling and repackaging it yourself) is actually beneficial.

And, of course, if you're talking about open-source software, there really isn't a significant difference. Honestly, recompiling is (for the author of a program, or for anyone with the source code,) a fairly trivial process these days.

I believe that reworking your interface to support different icon and text sizes, working around the existence or lack of hardware 3D support, dealing with differences in available RAM, etc. have a far more significant impact in porting apps from one machine to another, than whether that app is written in an interpreted or a compiled language.
 

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v13 is offline v13
2011-01-21 , 18:05
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#14
Originally Posted by wmarone View Post
This goes back to the "Store" aspect, which is not supplied by Intel (well maybe, if they adopt an Intel CPU,) Nokia, or "MeeGo" but by the hardware vendor.
Exactly! AFAIU it won't be easy (or possible) to have a common store for all different phones out-there. So, assuming that there will be multiple stores, a developer will have to upload his software to different "stores". But then again, that's not practical.

Let me rephrase the whole question: Can you (or anyone else) describe how the whole MeeGo app thing will work? I suppose that if the first device will be introduced in a couple of days, this should be already considered and decided by Nokia/MeeGo people (since they don't seem to discuss policy matters with the community).

Also, I'm not claiming that a VM (or Java) is the only solution for this. In fact I dislike Java. I'm just saying that at this point, after considering all the above, I finally understand why Google went with Java for Android.
 
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Copernicus is offline Copernicus
2011-01-21 , 18:14
Posts: 1,986 | Thanked: 7,698 times | Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio
#15
Originally Posted by v13 View Post
AFAIU it won't be easy (or possible) to have a common store for all different phones out-there. So, assuming that there will be multiple stores, a developer will have to upload his software to different "stores". But then again, that's not practical.
Been to Apple's app store lately? Your first choice: select either the iPhone app store, or the iPad app store. Check out the Ovi store some time; it's more unified than Apple's store, but you still need to tell them which phone you have (at which point they can filter out the apps that won't run on your phone). I haven't yet tried the Google's store, but Android is still a very young system; give it a few years, and I'm sure it'll be forced to bifurcate in exactly the same way that the more mature systems have...
 

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festivalnut is offline festivalnut
2011-01-21 , 18:24
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#16
i'm not so sure on the technical aspects/development side, but you cant say things like meego devs in 2014 will have to support 2011 hardware, they won't, even android which you're comparing it to doesn't do that. there are android apps which simply won't run on the low-end phones released the same year, and every time a new build of android is released a lot of the apps need to be modified and re-uploaded.
personally, i dislike the way of building the one-size-fits-all type apps you are looking at, simply because you're catering to the lowest common denominator, instead of building for maximum performance you build for maximum compatibility which in the phone market can be a huge difference! we've been playing java games cross platform for years now, just find the right resolution for your phone, but with the n95 for example the java games came nowhere near the quality of .sis games designed specifically to utilise the n95's (at the time) power.
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wmarone is offline wmarone
2011-01-21 , 18:56
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#17
Originally Posted by v13 View Post
Let me rephrase the whole question: Can you (or anyone else) describe how the whole MeeGo app thing will work?
Much more straightforward. And is this how I understand it, for good or bad:

Vendors become service providers, which is what they want.

Much like how Nokia has Ovi, vendors will provide their own stores (which could be set up however they wanted) tailored to their own devices. The concern you share is shared by me, but I suspect that they'll move this way regardless and push against Google.

I suppose that if the first device will be introduced in a couple of days, this should be already considered and decided by Nokia/MeeGo people (since they don't seem to discuss policy matters with the community).
And Nokia's solution, regardless of architecture, will be Ovi. MeeGo is almost completely detached from the "store" concept aside from specifying what a "compliant application" and a "compliant device" are, as well as providing an upstream to base a device on.

I finally understand why Google went with Java for Android.
Java wouldn't really resolve this issue, IIRC that was chosen mostly due to its popularity in the mobile space already. Google's focus has been on keeping themselves in the game,
 

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mikecomputing is offline mikecomputing
2011-01-21 , 19:00
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#18
To the threadcreator:

Are you saying apps written for Android 2.3 is working on old Android like 1.5? I dont think soo!

Also you saying Meego is written in C, well if you mean lowlevel API its true. If you mean highlevel API like QT then its C++ and QML(javascript based) and sometimes python(not officially supported) language like QML and python is similar to VM atleast for the developers.

Also if you think Android is just pure java in lowlevel your really are wrong. there are plenty of C++/C code in android too so I dont get your point at all. Also advanced games written for Android is non java and pure C++.

Another thing I personally dislike the fact to make a world where everyone is úsing exactly the same OS.

People want choices! Atleast me. I dont give a **** if there is plenty more apps in Android. I still prefer Maemo/Meego. I dont wanna get feeded by some company saying what I shal use.

The "Microsoft way" of feeding people with its OS is over.


BUT you have one point when I thinking. The facts that Intel is a chipmanufactor and the Meego so far has progressed mostly on Intelplatform is a bit bad in way of choices if it end with only Intel chipset support.
Last edited by mikecomputing; 2011-01-21 at 19:06.
 

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patstew is offline patstew
2011-01-21 , 19:21
Posts: 69 | Thanked: 53 times | Joined on Aug 2009
#19
A large percentage of mobile apps will be possible in QML, as far as I understand it. It seems to be enough for the standard 'get data from $website -> fancy display' pattern that most mobile apps fit into. The ones that won't are games and such that will be dependent on hardware on any platform, so I'm not sure this will be a problem specific to meego.
On the other hand, I'd agree that a load of binary only C programs would be less than ideal for meego long term, if it turned out like that.
 
theflew is offline theflew
2011-01-21 , 21:28
Posts: 237 | Thanked: 167 times | Joined on Feb 2007 @ Powell, OH
#20
Originally Posted by v13 View Post
Exactly! AFAIU it won't be easy (or possible) to have a common store for all different phones out-there. So, assuming that there will be multiple stores, a developer will have to upload his software to different "stores". But then again, that's not practical.
It doesn't have to be multiple stores. It could still be one store just like OVI is and support multiple platforms which OVI does. As far as a developer doing uploads it depends if they want to support multiple chipset architectures and/or devices. Qt is the common denominator so currently you would only have to compile for ARM or x86 (i.e. you could compile once and support Symbian and the N900) assuming you have the necessary ifs for differences.
 
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