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	benny1967	2009-06-27 , 08:49
	Posts: 3,790 \| Thanked: 5,718 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria	#11

two thoughts:

it's not all that bad, really. such a small market, and still: last time i checked i found more apps on downloads.maemo.org than on store.ovi.com for my S60. just to put things in proportion. (the overall number of downloads at ovi is higher, of course, but more than half of it is themes, sounds, wallpapers...)

on the negative side, there's too little effort to bring existing desktop apps to the platform. yes i know some argue you cannot do this and go fighting ideological battles on "mobile UIs" andd stuff... but even if you're on that side: it's better to have a non-optimized, desktop-like application than nothing. also, there's the possbility to avoid the UI-battle by porting libraries und CLI-tools and let others build new apps on top of them.
so it would have been helpful to encourage porting...

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	Bundyo	2009-06-27 , 13:08
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You seem to forget that most GTK+ desktop apps are using the latest libs... which are not available for Maemo 4. Sometimes its easier to rewrite an app than to get it running.

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attila77	2009-06-27 , 14:01
Posts: 3,319 \| Thanked: 5,610 times \| Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland	#13

I might be boring by repeating this like a parrot, but this is exactly why I feel PyQt is such a killer combinaton. Easy to code, can develop on any of mac/win/linux, excellent docs and community, has half a dozen IDEs, no crosscompilation or scratchbox required has library functions for pretty much everything and with sticking to a few guidelines it doesn't have to be slow, either. The only reason it won't get that popular on current-gen NITs is because it's off limits for most simple users (it's hard to keep qt on the default system layout, and cloning is still rocket science for many).

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	qgil	2009-06-27 , 19:20
	Posts: 3,105 \| Thanked: 11,088 times \| Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)	#14

Originally Posted by nilchak

In less than 30 days , they have more than 30 apps in the marketplace.

You can't really compare, but there are more in Fremantle extras-devel already now.

Those numbers don't tell much about how easy or complex is to develop on the WebOS. Still your point is good and the topic is really relevant to Maemo.

What are these 30 apps? I couldn't find a complete listing but there is http://www.palm.com/us/products/phon...lications.html

Most of these have a complexity equivalent to a thick desktop widget. And this is not bad! They count as 1 just like... Tear? However, the amount of work needed to have that "1" up is less. We have seen this trend already with the iPhone apps and now with the S60 widgets. Simpler apps for simpler use cases. Less native environment and more runtimes easier to approach like e.g. Nokia Web Runtime.

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	Texrat	2009-06-27 , 19:22
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#15

Originally Posted by tso

Sounds like qt to me

Good point, I had forgotten...

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	Jaffa	2009-06-27 , 20:28
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Originally Posted by Benson

(I do hope Fremantle will be nicer to on-device work -- there's absolutely nothing about the N8x0s rendering them unsuitable for moderate dev work, and even less about a new OMAP3 powerhouse.)

I think my dream - and an OMAP3430 with oodles of on-device storage will enable this - is:

Modern, fast language and APIs making doing the right thing easy.
Powerful, cross-platform IDE with proper code complete (perfect for quickly exploring new APIs)
Compilation on-device: plug it in (via USB: ad-hoc wlan or zeroconf just don't have the proven track record, but they should be supported too I guess), launch the IDE (or use a text editor if you've not got one)
Remote debugging: step through code in your IDE whilst it's running on the device.
VNC or somesuch UI duplication so that you don't have to switch your focus from one screen to another.

(2) means you no longer need an SDK environment which doesn't match the device; you don't need to faff with Scratchbox or sub-optimal qemu; you can develop on any OS.

It's just cleaner architecturally. Pre-release development would still require an SDK, as would any development before you get a device, but for the majority of developers I think this'd be a real boon.

Unfortunately, I don't think Maemo ~~Software~~Devices are really planning on offering such an easy to use path for developers: ESBox looks promising, but is complicated to install; still requires Scratchbox etc. etc. And most comments I've seen suggest that Scratchbox "works for them".

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	Jaffa	2009-06-27 , 20:37
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Originally Posted by qgil

You can't really compare, but there are more in Fremantle extras-devel already now.

Quim, I'll put a €5 bet on there being more webOS applications available for the pre by the end of the year than there are for Maemo 5.

webOS has more interest as an interesting device, with a complete UI was shown and has the promise of apps being able to be put together in an innovative way (although sub-optimal in many ways as fms will point out).

Now, I don't work in marketing directly, so I can't say why one device gets more press and excitement than another; but I can recognise it when I see it :-/

Those numbers don't tell much about how easy or complex is to develop on the WebOS. Still your point is good and the topic is really relevant to Maemo.

What are Maemo Devices' plans for Maemo development? Scratchbox 1 is still the official way with a large bundle, but there are incomplete guides for Scratchbox 2 (and good luck if you're not on x86); Qt is on the roadmap, but there are still lots of outstanding questions (in particular, if I end up focusing on Vala - which is based on gobject/glib; am I on a dead end path); complete and comprehensive documentation seems an afterthought (see Andre's bugs on which Gtk+ widgets are actually supported); ...

For an open platform, there are sure a load of barriers to entry for anyone who isn't already familiar with Gtk+ programming on Linux. (Now, I've got some familiarity, but loads of people don't).

Entice the developers and they build the software which entices the users. (One or two fun accelerometer-based third-party games on the iPod Touch made me seriously consider picking one up)

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	Bundyo	2009-06-27 , 22:47
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Originally Posted by Jaffa

Quim, I'll put a €5 bet on there being more webOS applications available for the pre by the end of the year than there are for Maemo 5.

webOS has more interest as an interesting device, with a complete UI was shown and has the promise of apps being able to be put together in an innovative way (although sub-optimal in many ways as fms will point out).

Now, I don't work in marketing directly, so I can't say why one device gets more press and excitement than another; but I can recognise it when I see it :-/

What are Maemo Devices' plans for Maemo development? Scratchbox 1 is still the official way with a large bundle, but there are incomplete guides for Scratchbox 2 (and good luck if you're not on x86); Qt is on the roadmap, but there are still lots of outstanding questions (in particular, if I end up focusing on Vala - which is based on gobject/glib; am I on a dead end path); complete and comprehensive documentation seems an afterthought (see Andre's bugs on which Gtk+ widgets are actually supported); ...

For an open platform, there are sure a load of barriers to entry for anyone who isn't already familiar with Gtk+ programming on Linux. (Now, I've got some familiarity, but loads of people don't).

Entice the developers and they build the software which entices the users. (One or two fun accelerometer-based third-party games on the iPod Touch made me seriously consider picking one up)

For me Maemo SDK+ basaed on Scratchbox 2 is a dead path - it has a locked dependency on a Debian based system, what about everyone else?

After the premature death of Gazpacho for Maemo, There's de-facto no UI builder for Hildon. There's Glade, but Hildon is not supported. I don't expect that to change with the Fremantle release, but who knows - the information from Nokia is scarse on all fronts.

QT is going to be supported in Fremantle, so probably the easiest path for the newbies will be QT's declarative UI and the QT creator. This of course if there's good Hildon support.

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	javispedro	2009-06-28 , 00:54
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What I don't understand is why Nokia has so many useful RAD-like thingies (like that Web Runtime) but is not actively encouraging them as Maemo capable development platforms.

Also, where's that "Universal QT" with both S60 and Maemo compatibility?

If the only bump in the road to success is writing a "web application engine" (aka reusing Webkit+JavascriptCore) and putting up some nice frontend (aka application launcher) with a local web server to it (aka application manager), as the Palm Pre may show us, then let Maemo have it too, dammit.

Serious apps can use full GTK for the moment. I am yet to use GTK for any "serious app" but if I were to start I would use Vala. Has a "nice" feel to it, don't ask me why.

BTW, declarative QT seems a nice idea to me.