hm...
well that was interesting.
yes ...the guys could have handled that a little more diplomatically.
Sure the fellow was asking an exorbitant sum, but that is his right to do so.
But the fellas could have handled it better, in the end it even drove the op to lash out rudely.

Interestingly, I have a good long list of folks on my ignore list.
Folks who have in the past exhibited behaviour that isn't changing but have been reliably and consistently rude.
I figured it the best way to deal with them.

The thing is though, it doesn't solve the problems of the forum, merely masks them by putting blinders on. So I have no idea what is going on with the uglier half of the forums posts.

It isn't really an answer or solution, not even a stop gap.

If councils and moderators are suffering from community ennui, are tired, or the place is so bloody huge an unwieldy now that it is difficult to manage, or are having a hard time for whatever reason ..in doing their duties, then we need to address that first, and then we have the ability to get this place sorted out.

Otherwise ..if we have no oversight, no management, then it is not a good sign. And things will only get worse.

As you said wicket, it is heading to the place where coming here isn't on the top of the "I really want to be here" list.

If the councils and moderators cannot do the job.
Then perhaps a forum schism is necessary.
or at worst
a forum wide purge of everything not maemo and clean this place up.
and continue with the mandate of this being "Talk Maemo".

But I will be damned before this place is taken over by rude and ignorant upstarts, whose interests have nothing to do with maemo whatsoever, and who should be reminded that they and their subject matter have been here under "sufferance" and a wish by the maemo community to be inclusive.

Point blank.
I think everyone here knows I have our community's interests at heart.

Whoever has them,
Give me the keys to the place for 30 minutes.
I will clean this place up.
As well, the implementing of a "3 strikes" , regardless of elapsed time between offences, or whether or not it occurred in the same thread ,
then a temp. banning, followed by a permanent banning for offenders who don't get the hint if they continue, that "civil" and kind behaviour is mandatory here.
Rooted member "behavioural issues" have no place here.
They should be seeking "professional help" outside of this forum in their personal life for their issues and get them dealt with,
before coming here to poison this place.

We may get fewer folks coming and going, possibly.
But they will be here to talk about what the forum was originally mandated for, topics on Maemo and devices that run the os's.

If I remember correctly you were once, no, twice actually offered "the keys" but you did decline the offer back then.
No problem really, it might well be that you'll have the chance to go at that again one of these days.

About the vote itself, nice idea but I currently don't see any need for urgent action, hence voted "no change"
I rather enjoy the yummy popcorn while following the drama.

let's not turn this to another #metoo place, please.

@ juice
I was on the ballot twice I think, but not voted to council.
Consecutive times afterwards I think I was nominated but turned that down since then.
I wasn't offered any keys per se.


#metoo, Social Justice Warriors, and Political Correctness are modern day abominations.

I am speaking of what every human being should have been taught as a child.
Civility.
Manners.
Restraint.
Compassion.
Thinking before speaking.

I half expected someone trying to paint with a broad brush and raise the spectre of the extremist agendas.
No one should try lumping standards of civil behaviour in with agendas by extremists.


It may be a moot point anyway, since it very well can end up that a majority of voters here view that there are no problems.
I have no problem abiding by that decision.
I am all for "business as usual"
Just makes it easier for me, then I don't need to spend my time or effort on a topic that isn't considered a problem here.

I think that bringing this up, lifting on the table, putting eyes on it publicly, may have already done the job. I would suggest not to do anything but just see how things develop from here. So it was very neccessary to make this vote thing with real options cause it has made people to think and now in every subconscious there is a small red flag on the matter. I believe what should be done, has been done - possibly and probably.

I have brought attention to topics.
Nothing more.
Whether anything is going to be done is a completely other matter.
Nothing has been done yet, nothing may be done.
Saying otherwise is not accurate

one thing for certain is...
though I would love there to be no problems with our forum and vote that way.
and though my gut tells me that behaviour has been sliding and will get worse and worse unless these issues are addressed, and the issue of free floating start ups with no regulating need to be properly dealt with to the degree of containment at least, if not more serious methods.

It seems the option of at least prudently looking and studying the forums varied issues.. and going from there to decide on a course of action or not ...depending on consensus .
Is the least popular
and seems to only have one vote so far..
mine,
and though it seemed the most logical choice ,
it wasn't easy to vote so...

So far ..it appears to be shaping up to be an issue that is divided .

I didn't actually vote in the poll because I don't think the problem is only related to start-ups and I don't think there is a liability issue. There is a general behaviour issue with certain people frequently breaching the Maemo Code of Conduct and some will see TMO as an unpleasant place to visit. I personally don't know what the solution should be; that should be for the council to decide. I think they should also evaluate whether the forum moderators are fit to continue.

I don't see this turning into a #metoo. It might seem that endsormeans or myself are being too dramatic, and some may find the squabbles and insults entertaining, but it may not be all fun and games for the person on the receiving end. The way I see it is simple. There's a Code of Conduct, it should be followed. If not, then what's the point of its existence? Let all run riot and let hell break loose.

I hope Maemish is right and nothing else will need to be done. Time will tell.

I lumped a few unrelated and cross-over issues into the same poll.
Under the rough umbrella of the need for us to talk about the disparate issues and allow for the councils and Mods to understand better whatever decided direction to pursue, in dealing with the issues.

There will always be friction, banter back and forth,
and that is fine.
I am all for good wit and argument ..pull out the popcorn.

But when hurtful things are said that in their intent are meant to wound, when civility and manners break down utterly
That is another
Grown ups calm down, apologise if they said anything hurtful, and forgive one another.
I don't see that in most of the nastiness I have seen over the last while now.
Uncouth behaviour to downright rude and nasty offensive remorseless folks have always thrived and relied on the hope it's just in people's heads, all in their minds, and that people won't do anything because "mentioning it may be enough".
No wicket.
You and Maemish have just finished convincing me that my vote was utterly wrong and my attempt at a balanced approach ridiculous.
When one has a vermin problem in the house, one doesn't decide to scrutinize and debate the ethical and philosophical logic of the issue or on a metaphysical level that the vermin "aren't actually in the house at all and don't exist" ..
while the vermin tear the house apart.

Sure if some "feel" there is no Start up issue of proliferation throughout the forum and that it is unregulated
That is fine.
"Feeling So" versus documenting the number of these varied threads is needed.
And as you pointed out wicket, the example of behaviour that was uncalled for.
The record of this unchecked behaviour litters this place.

And as for the behavioural issues here..
"feeling" that there are no problems doesn't come close to the tangible proof in the number of posts and threads that exist,
their exact content written by the hand of the offending posters ,
which you mentioned violates our code of conduct ,
and are unrepentant in their behaviour and offered no apology,
stand in stark legible contrast to "feeling" there is no behavioural problem.

@endso you might be correct.

The fact that I have not been target of bad behaviour might cloud my judgement on this. Feeling of hurt is subjective and it is very difficult for someone not on the line of fire to feel what it's like.

Also at the same time I'd like to apologise if someone feels I have offended them.

you like pichlo or myself, are not the best of targets, since we speak up and in most colourful ways.
It isn't something regular directed or including us, so we wouldn't notice it.
Likewise, in the past, resolution of differences is key.
working things out, sorting out misinterpretations, misunderstandings, apologies, etc. is ...well...being a responsible human being.
And reflecting on the past wondering if one has offended someone and it was left unresolved is as natural a feeling as wondering if one left the stove on.
So don't mull on that juiceme.
it is after all... a two way street and one can meet another half way on it, speak up and speak their mind, and tell you, or me or whomever, their hurt.
It isn't all on you ....or me...or whomever.
Likewise...I cannot help but wonder,
if I offended any, and it were left that hurt still lay there for the other,
I would hope they would speak up and get it out of their system. Nothing like clearing the air ..so to speak.
As for myself, any wound given me, is forgiven and forgotten.
I think it is perfectly normal to hurt another whether in the heat of the moment of impassioned argument, or normal human thoughtlessness , or by misinterpreting.
It is how the incident is resolved in the end that counts most.