agreed on your last point (not to say that I disagree with anything else in your post, mind you), a lot of people don't know what open source is... not even vaguely.

as for "common folk" and the Linux desktop... yeah, it's complicated, and I can appreciate that most folks aren't interested in learning the ins & outs of getting and/or keeping it running properly. having said that, i'll offer that those same individuals are probably no more competent at keeping their Windows desktop running properly, either.

My sister is not a "power user" by any means... about a year ago, she asked for my help in replacing her old PC (a 200MHz PII machine, running Windows ME) with something that "doesn't take a half hour to boot up!" I spec'd out and built a 3.2GHz machine with 2G of ram, 300G of hard drive space, all the 'standard bells & whistles', and a 20" wide-screen monitor. I set everything up, and sent it off to her. (for the record, it took less than 20 seconds to boot into Windows XP Pro SP2). Last month, I was visiting her, and I went to use her computer to check my mail; 30 minutes after turning it on (why does she keep turning it off? feh.. that's another story), it still wasn't done booting -- she had put so much crap on the machine, that it was just as unusable (if not moreso!) than the ancient relic that it replaced. All manner of explanation on how a program calling itself a "download accelerator" could not possibly do -anything- other than, perhaps, slow down her downloads, fell on deaf ears. she's convinced it works, and insists on keeping it installed. the same for the seven (yes, seven) different "toolbar" launcher applications, the 29 "helper apps" in her browser (oh, and she won't use the firefox I installed, either -- "it's weird"), etc.

my point is -- are these the same sorts of folks that think that running a Linux desktop is difficult? do they truly think they are effectively managing their Windows desktop?

I don't think the problem is Linux, or any of the several window managers you can use on it. I think the problem is the users. ...regardless of operating system, they don't understand enough about computers to truly decide whether Linux or Windows is "tougher to learn", so they rely on the marketing hype for their decision. Windows has a gigantic marketing arm that shouts slogans at them from every direction. Linux has a technically-oriented user community, and no marketing budget.

lately konqueror would hang every time a flash element was loaded. why? because whoever coded flash tried to call a gtk function that would only be available if gtk itself was properly loaded, as a test to see if they needed to load gtk or not.

and i have seen flash not letting go of sound resources correctly, or basically hanging the whole of firefox when i close a tab with a running flash video.

and the only way to "fix" it for none-adobe developers are to try and find out what flash is doing and build some kind of workaround. beyond that its a matter of reporting to adobe and pray that they come around with a fix, that do not break something else in the process.

basically proprietary devs seems all to used to the microsoft way. thats the way where microsoft left a workaround in windows 95 or something specifically for simcity, because simcity made use of a dos bug where it could access areas of ram after it had freed it.

as for creating a open source implementation of flash, can someone say wine?

unless adobe goes to the step of turning flash over to some standardizing org (if microsoft didnt manage to permanently undermine the trust of those with their ooxml mess), it will be perpetual catch up. that is, if they can implement some parts at all, like video codecs, because of patenting issues.

the attitude seen is the attitude you will see everywhere when you cage a animal thats used to run free and wild...

Actually, the only reason I use Windows (and yes, I know how to use Windows properly - I keep my computer fairly clean now) is because of the lack of hardware or proprietary software support. I've really tried hard to make Linux work. I've installed Ubuntu various times, various versions, in various ways, and it always ends up sitting there on an ignored HDD partition. Why? Because I'm watching a flash video on Windoze.

First it took me ages to get my wireless usb adapter to work with Ubuntu. When I finally got that far, I sighed in relief as I downloaded a whole bunch of updates. Then - I had to set everything up. My usual stuff - firefox extensions + bookmarks, extra apps, etc. Then I got to the flash installation, I installed it directly from Firefox, and whooo! I have flash. I go to youtube, watch a video or two, and everything freezes up, the whole computer, everything. I'm almost sure this was a flash issue, related to my hardware. I read up around the forums and find out that there's some issues with my sound card, and I give up.

Personally, I think the entire problem with linux is too much variation. There are few standards.... How many distributions are out right now? It's probably not too difficult to get an app working on another distro, since they're basically the same, but it can't be easy to go around making sure it works on each one, right? Things can only get worse as distros become more distant. Looking around distros I find some that support my wireless adapter out of the box, some not at all, and some "with some tweaking." The tweaking is really difficult for a semi-smart kid who can follow directions and has some basic knowledge of linux (I flatter myself). To end users with no knowledge of linux or computers in general, it must be really hard. I know Vista's not perfect with hardware support, but Windows XP has had years to catch up with hardware.

linux standard base...

and wireless is a beast because of different nations have different channels they allow. and to keep cost down, the brands use firmware rather then hardware to control that. and you cant let a unlimited radio loose in public hands, as thats a jammer waiting to happen...

either way it's a bit frustrating... I'm going to try Ubuntu Hardy Heron soon...supposedly my wifi adapter works right out of the box. Hope everything else cooperates.

*edit* another point - linux probably does just fine if it's preinstalled on a computer when you buy it, it just doesn't seem to like my mismatched setup though.

I'm pretty much gone over to Linux entirely, though I can call myself a Microsoft Professional if I want to, having passed a few tests. Linux drives me crazy at times because it is so much trouble to fix problems that have known solutions, and some people act so superior because they happen to know the name of some file that you have to edit or that such and such a fix can be found in such and such a place, or that the correct syntax for a command is "this" and not "that".

Fortunately, some distributions exist that try to minimize these problems.

BTW: I think that the basic premise of this thread is false -- I don't think that Linux is particularly "held back". I think it's thriving.

True, I think its doing better and better, but it's like it's hit a wall that it cant get past: appeaal to normal, non computer-savvy people. People immediately like linux when they see Compiz/Beryl and the snazzy interface, but their eyes go out of focus when the commandd line pops up. Its getting easier though, no doubt, with certain distros aimed at making things easier.

This may change a few things
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/0...cess_protocols

Rick

Sounds promising. That may solve the Flash hassle for now. Even though means dependency on Adobe. Still I think it is a sign that desktop (and mobile)-linux is becoming more important commercially. And in this case partly driven by Microsoft pushing Silverlight/Moonlight for Linux..the irony. Also lately big companies like Novell and Dell are demanding open source linux drivers, like the recent graphics-card driver from ATI .

@Krisse - i'm wondering about black and white problem... By default Compiz turns a non-responding program black and white and if flash hangs FF, then that's the problem.

There is an open source flash player already, but it has only progressed to Flash 7 support. Hopefully that new Adobe step on opening the flash can help the OSS flash player evolve to a usable stage.