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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-08-31 , 14:37
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#11
Hardware abstraction layers have evolved into very powerful interfaces that have indeed pushed differentiation up into the OS layer. It was a natural consequence of the push toward hardware standardization (ie, plug and play) and Human Input Devices (HIDs) and USB-powered items in general would have struggled without that advent.

It's funny though to see Linux dragged into OS differentiation. Isn't that in opposition to the core goal?
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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-08-31 , 14:43
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#12
Originally Posted by nowave7 View Post
But since both Maemo and Palm WebOS are Linux based, and that the hw -wise are the same, it is fair to presume the basic apps, should work on both devices (apps that don't rely on specifics of both devices).
Yes, but the point is the Pre officially does not support running native apps (can be hacked, but that's hardly a prospect a commercial developer can bulid a business on). E.g. if you are writing 'real' apps for Palm's store and WebOS, that application (game) will have no connection to Linux (and thus Maemo).

EDIT: It seems that Mac OS X uses a specific executable file format, which is not ABI compatible to ELF, which is used by Linux, so no iPhone could not run even the most basic apps that Maemo or WebOS run.
The executable file format is not such a big problem, you can always recompile. However, this is the same as the point above - if you want to be part of official distribution channels, you must play along with the OS and it's development process.
 

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2009-08-31 , 15:22
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#13
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
It's really not. The problem with both Android and webOS is that lock you into their respective userspaces since both Palm and Google decided to put together their own basically from scratch.

Nokia went the other direction and modified desktop libraries for use on a mobile device which is why it's reasonably straightforward to run regular Linux applications in Maemo and vice versa. The same is not true of either Android or webOS. For Android you need Davlik, for webOS you'd need a lot of hacking.
Well that's what I meant when I said basic apps, such as hello world , that don't use anything fancy other than the libc/glibc, that is even if these libs are there in the first place (I honestly don't know), and that are binary compatible across all Linux distros. The major obstacle here are the libraries, which I presume are Android or WebOS specific. But in general one could make an app work in both Maemo and Android/WebOS, with a looot of work.
 
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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2009-08-31 , 16:29
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#14
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
Yes, but the point is the Pre officially does not support running native apps (can be hacked, but that's hardly a prospect a commercial developer can bulid a business on). E.g. if you are writing 'real' apps for Palm's store and WebOS, that application (game) will have no connection to Linux (and thus Maemo).
Beign locked in is a relative state which one learns from experience. Its open (and unfortunately defacto) standards/protocols and integration which make the world go round.

Linux running on Android or WebOS or UNIX-like on iPhoneOS says little to nothing about compatibility with Maemo. However if you have a game on one mobile platform this could communicate with another using open standards supported in both devices (802.11a/b/g, TCP/IP, and a protocol used over TCP/IP). Ofcourse we haven't discussed the potential of Qt here yet, but that is long term. Will developers realize they could save a lot of time? Time will tell.

Also see it from other point of view. Linux on desktop has little market share. Open standards only used on Linux desktop have on the short term little to not relevance for most end users . Therefore it is difficult to help them understand the relevance.

In other words, if one is locked in and happy with that for one reason or another (work around it, don't even know it) one doesn't care about your stated point. Once the disadvantages of being locked in outbalance the advantages change of perception will occur. For that to realize the end user can be educated but thus far 'it is open source' has on short term not been a fruitful, convincing argument.

Futhermore compatibility layers are very important. WINE with DirectX compatibility layer running on Linux/X11/OpenGL is a great example IMO but its also for x86-32 only.
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nowave7 is offline nowave7
2009-08-31 , 18:36
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#15
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
Hardware abstraction layers have evolved into very powerful interfaces that have indeed pushed differentiation up into the OS layer. It was a natural consequence of the push toward hardware standardization (ie, plug and play) and Human Input Devices (HIDs) and USB-powered items in general would have struggled without that advent.

It's funny though to see Linux dragged into OS differentiation. Isn't that in opposition to the core goal?
I've always wondered how did Palm managed to build a proprietary OS on Linux basis?! I mean, sure there can be some closed source portions, but the entire OS?! Or am I wrong here? According to wikipedia, the OS is based on Linux kernel, and is closed source with some open source components?! Really don't get how this is compliant with GPLv2?
 
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2009-08-31 , 18:47
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#16
Originally Posted by nowave7 View Post
I've always wondered how did Palm managed to build a proprietary OS on Linux basis?! I mean, sure there can be some closed source portions, but the entire OS?! Or am I wrong here? According to wikipedia, the OS is based on Linux kernel, and is closed source with some open source components?! Really don't get how this is compliant with GPLv2?
they have named the presentation layer WebOS.

I have to say, ive heard many people ask the same thing about my system.
but it is as much an OS as liqbase (liqos) is.
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nowave7 is offline nowave7
2009-08-31 , 23:16
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#17
Originally Posted by lcuk View Post
they have named the presentation layer WebOS.

I have to say, ive heard many people ask the same thing about my system.
but it is as much an OS as liqbase (liqos) is.
No offense, but that by no means is an OS! It's just a wrapper at best! It would be like Samsung calling their TouchWiz UI an OS. Rubbish!
 

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2009-09-01 , 00:00
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#18
Originally Posted by nowave7 View Post
No offense, but that by no means is an OS! It's just a wrapper at best! It would be like Samsung calling their TouchWiz UI an OS. Rubbish!
and that is what i said myself

the other thing, what OS does webOS run on?
its in exactly the same boat which was my point exactly.
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REMFwhoopitydo is offline REMFwhoopitydo
2009-09-01 , 08:59
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#19
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
Actually, that's pretty much bogus. Hardware is just one aspect of the equation (and not even necessarily the most important). With the exception of OpenGL ES, it's actually easier to port something from a desktop x86 Linux to Maemo (or vice versa) than it is from the iPhone or Pre.
sorry, badly phrased.

i do believe that a common baseline of hardware performance and a convergence around OpenGL 2.0 ES will make it far more appealing for commercial games/3Dapp developers to port their iphone products to other platforms.
Last edited by REMFwhoopitydo; 2009-09-01 at 09:11.
 
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nowave7 is offline nowave7
2009-09-01 , 09:34
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#20
Originally Posted by REMFwhoopitydo View Post
sorry, badly phrased.

i do believe that a common baseline of hardware performance and a convergence around OpenGL 2.0 ES will make it far more appealing for commercial games/3Dapp developers to port their iphone products to other platforms.
If nothing else, it should me much easier than developing games for PC, PS3, and Xbox 360 in parallel. At least for the big names such as EA, or Gameloft.
 
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