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2010-05-01
, 05:11
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Posts: 838 |
Thanked: 292 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
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#12
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fatalsaint, thanks for the info and your great earlier post. ok remember I am new to linux...
ok I get (or think I get) that
easy debian is debian specially made for the processor running the n900 which is called arm. what I am confused about is regarding apps and repos for easy debian. are the repos just the regular stock debian repos, or are the repos specially made easy debian repos with all the packages made to run on the arm processor?
if the former, I guess I understand why upgrading or installing onto the chroot debian might now work, but if the latter, why would updating and installing be frowned upon.
the reason I am beating this into the ground is that getting this phone would be a considerable financial decision for me right now, and the thing that entices me most is having access to a full and real linux environment in my pocket. in my limited linux experience, installing and upgrading software be it from tgz or rpm/deb packages is a significant part of really learning how to use a modern linux system.
so if you just install the debian instance and then leave it as is (package wise) that would be a strike (though not a deal breaker) against the phone for me. I mean, do you even get to choose the installed apps in that case? really I don't see that much of a point in getting a full linux system on there that must remain static....
ok I get (or think I get) that
easy debian is debian specially made for the processor running the n900 which is called arm. what I am confused about is regarding apps and repos for easy debian. are the repos just the regular stock debian repos, or are the repos specially made easy debian repos with all the packages made to run on the arm processor?
if the former, I guess I understand why upgrading or installing onto the chroot debian might now work, but if the latter, why would updating and installing be frowned upon.
the reason I am beating this into the ground is that getting this phone would be a considerable financial decision for me right now, and the thing that entices me most is having access to a full and real linux environment in my pocket. in my limited linux experience, installing and upgrading software be it from tgz or rpm/deb packages is a significant part of really learning how to use a modern linux system.
so if you just install the debian instance and then leave it as is (package wise) that would be a strike (though not a deal breaker) against the phone for me. I mean, do you even get to choose the installed apps in that case? really I don't see that much of a point in getting a full linux system on there that must remain static....
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2010-05-01
, 05:20
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#13
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Originally Posted by extendedping
Debian maintains their own repositories. ARM is not specific to the N900; several devices use that processor. Debian (real debian, just plain flat debian, forget the "easy") has ported all of their software and maintain repositories for 12+ different architectures.
easy debian is debian specially made for the processor running the n900 which is called arm. what I am confused about is regarding apps and repos for easy debian. are the repos just the regular stock debian repos, or are the repos specially made easy debian repos with all the packages made to run on the arm processor?
if the former, I guess I understand why upgrading or installing onto the chroot debian might now work, but if the latter, why would updating and installing be frowned upon.
Take openssh for example. Scroll down the page you will see several different architectures that package was ported for. Debian maintains one of the most versatile repository systems that I've ever seen. Easy Debian is simply Debian, straight, full debian. The "easy" is just Qole's scripts and stuff that help "integrate" it into maemo, which - it isn't truly integrated, qole just does an extremely good job at making the debian apps look and run like they were launched like any Maemo app.
It's still just debian, and it still uses debian's own ARM repositories.
the reason I am beating this into the ground is that getting this phone would be a considerable financial decision for me right now, and the thing that entices me most is having access to a full and real linux environment in my pocket. in my limited linux experience, installing and upgrading software be it from tgz or rpm/deb packages is a significant part of really learning how to use a modern linux system.
so if you just install the debian instance and then leave it as is (package wise) that would be a strike (though not a deal breaker) against the phone for me. I mean, do you even get to choose the installed apps in that case? really I don't see that much of a point in getting a full linux system on there that must remain static....
But, the processor on these devices is severely pathetic when compared to a computer - so installing source files could take hours to compile and build on these slow things.
You very well can update your easy debian installation from lenny(stable) to unstable to whatever you want - Just with the very clear understanding that you are on your own in troubleshooting why things do or don't work.
But still.. there is nothing saying you can't come here, make a post, tell us what you did and we won't still help you troubleshoot. Just don't expect that "Easy" Debian is going to run flawless, every package to run perfectly (just slower), and everything to build and compile like it does on your desktop.
That's not going to happen. Some stuff just isn't going to work.
__________________
If I've helped you or you use any of my packages feel free to help me out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maintaining:
pyRadio - Pandora Radio on your N900, N810 or N800!
If I've helped you or you use any of my packages feel free to help me out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maintaining:
pyRadio - Pandora Radio on your N900, N810 or N800!
Last edited by fatalsaint; 2010-05-01 at 05:32.
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2010-05-01
, 05:52
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Posts: 838 |
Thanked: 292 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
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#14
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ok so it is real debian just with a few tweaks to be run off of the kernel of the maemo operating system. and it is using the official repos that have the software compiled to arm which is not specific to this device. got that (I hope)...
I just looked at the debian site and see that sid is unstable (he did kill his girlfriend right) and that lenny is the current stable version. when I said updates I meant like in ubuntu when I type sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade, to upgrade my packages, I did not mean trying to go from a stable branch of debian to an unstable branch...so if I can just sail along in stable that would be fine. I also would expect that some stuff would be horribly slow to install and basically useless due to screen size and processing power. what I don't get is why if easy debian is really debian for arm, why some packages just would not work at all regardless of their install time or feasibility of real world use.
also....question, does then easy debian follow the path of the debian stable releases? I see something called squeeze will be out this year from the debian site. would the n900 have a option to be upgraded from the easy debian apt-get command line to a new easy debian squeeze? or would that entail a fresh install.
again thats so much for working through with this newbie on this...
I just looked at the debian site and see that sid is unstable (he did kill his girlfriend right) and that lenny is the current stable version. when I said updates I meant like in ubuntu when I type sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade, to upgrade my packages, I did not mean trying to go from a stable branch of debian to an unstable branch...so if I can just sail along in stable that would be fine. I also would expect that some stuff would be horribly slow to install and basically useless due to screen size and processing power. what I don't get is why if easy debian is really debian for arm, why some packages just would not work at all regardless of their install time or feasibility of real world use.
also....question, does then easy debian follow the path of the debian stable releases? I see something called squeeze will be out this year from the debian site. would the n900 have a option to be upgraded from the easy debian apt-get command line to a new easy debian squeeze? or would that entail a fresh install.
again thats so much for working through with this newbie on this...
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2010-05-01
, 06:12
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#15
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I haven't looked into squeeze at all so can't answer that with any level of certainty but Debian is Debian.. if they make it apt-get dist-upgradeable then yes.
Yes you can apt-get update/upgrade in easy Debian but again you're now changing software and library versions and as such some stuff may and may not work after doing that.
As far as why some software I can't give a definitive answer. Just because it was compiled for arm doesn't necessarily mean it'll work. Thunderbird, for example, was installable but simply crashed on my N810 every time I tried to run it. Why? I dunno.. never looked into it that far.
Plus some apps are, say. 3D but dont support OpenGL/ES so even tho its probably installable the 3D on the N900 can't run it. There's any number of reasons why software won't work - I don't know and certainly couldn't list all of them here.
ETA: Sid joke got a chuckle outta me
Last edited by fatalsaint; 2010-05-01 at 06:21.
Yes you can apt-get update/upgrade in easy Debian but again you're now changing software and library versions and as such some stuff may and may not work after doing that.
As far as why some software I can't give a definitive answer. Just because it was compiled for arm doesn't necessarily mean it'll work. Thunderbird, for example, was installable but simply crashed on my N810 every time I tried to run it. Why? I dunno.. never looked into it that far.
Plus some apps are, say. 3D but dont support OpenGL/ES so even tho its probably installable the 3D on the N900 can't run it. There's any number of reasons why software won't work - I don't know and certainly couldn't list all of them here.
ETA: Sid joke got a chuckle outta me
__________________
If I've helped you or you use any of my packages feel free to help me out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maintaining:
pyRadio - Pandora Radio on your N900, N810 or N800!
If I've helped you or you use any of my packages feel free to help me out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maintaining:
pyRadio - Pandora Radio on your N900, N810 or N800!
Last edited by fatalsaint; 2010-05-01 at 06:21.
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2010-05-01
, 10:14
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Posts: 198 |
Thanked: 76 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
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#16
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Originally Posted by extendedping
for that purpose, maemo as is should be sufficient. there are repositories both from nokia and maemo and both stable, testing and devel.
the reason I am beating this into the ground is that getting this phone would be a considerable financial decision for me right now, and the thing that entices me most is having access to a full and real linux environment in my pocket. in my limited linux experience, installing and upgrading software be it from tgz or rpm/deb packages is a significant part of really learning how to use a modern linux system.
so, everything for learning should be available, including clobbering your installation.
you can apply your ubuntu knowldge, plus: if you fubar your installation, you can always reflash and start from scratch (easier than reinstalling ubuntu, since the flash images are preconfigured for the n900, no need to install extra drivers and stuff).
as the market goes, there are only two phones available with full linux: the now discontinued, though still sold, openmoko freerunner and the n900.
the freerunner is available at a range between 200 and 300 euros and more open than the n900 with several distributions available, among them plain debian. as a second device or for a geek not minding killing his phone now and then, it's an option.
if you need a full working phone most of the time (even the n900 lets you down now and then) and consider full linux access as nice to have, go with the n900.
according to some "that's it. i sell!" posts, there should be some 2nd hand n900s available ...
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2010-05-01
, 17:24
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Posts: 838 |
Thanked: 292 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
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#17
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thanks everyone for the info I now stand even more conflicted. I can install real debian but not have it guaranteed to work correctly once installing some apps from the official debian arm repo. kind of a good news (real debian) bad news (gives you the freedom to install apps that may screw up your debian due to incompatibility of debian being run on meego). hmmm. just hmmm.
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2010-05-01
, 17:56
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Posts: 198 |
Thanked: 76 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
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#18
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no, that's incorrect.
maemo is a full good linux. period.
meego will be a full good linux. period.
easy debian allows to run a plain debian parallel which lives in a chroot and can't access files and directories outside that chroot.
screwing up your installation is possible in every kind of installation.
easy debian in its _current_ state does recommend _not_ to install additional apps or do upgrades. depending on the man power and effort available to the easy debian project, those limitations are likely to go away in a more or less near future.
having followed the market for the last few years, i say maemo/meego based devices are the closest you will come to a full linux on a smartphone.
conclusion: if you are looking for a smartphone with a linux almost identically to your desktop, maemo/meego is the only way to go.
if you are looking for such a smartphone in a near future (imo for the next 6 to 12 month) the n900 is the only device.
ps: there's a project called "moebian", attempting to re-debianize maemo (and possibly meego) to make its packages fit in with plain debian, thus making the n900 running plain debian and thus being able to use all debian packages w/o needing something like "easy debian".
i have no idea, how realistic that is and how far they got so far.
maemo is a full good linux. period.
meego will be a full good linux. period.
easy debian allows to run a plain debian parallel which lives in a chroot and can't access files and directories outside that chroot.
screwing up your installation is possible in every kind of installation.
easy debian in its _current_ state does recommend _not_ to install additional apps or do upgrades. depending on the man power and effort available to the easy debian project, those limitations are likely to go away in a more or less near future.
having followed the market for the last few years, i say maemo/meego based devices are the closest you will come to a full linux on a smartphone.
conclusion: if you are looking for a smartphone with a linux almost identically to your desktop, maemo/meego is the only way to go.
if you are looking for such a smartphone in a near future (imo for the next 6 to 12 month) the n900 is the only device.
ps: there's a project called "moebian", attempting to re-debianize maemo (and possibly meego) to make its packages fit in with plain debian, thus making the n900 running plain debian and thus being able to use all debian packages w/o needing something like "easy debian".
i have no idea, how realistic that is and how far they got so far.
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2010-05-01
, 19:59
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#19
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Originally Posted by extendedping
I think you're taking this too far.
thanks everyone for the info I now stand even more conflicted. I can install real debian but not have it guaranteed to work correctly once installing some apps from the official debian arm repo. kind of a good news (real debian) bad news (gives you the freedom to install apps that may screw up your debian due to incompatibility of debian being run on meego). hmmm. just hmmm.
You can setup real debian, and some of the apps inside the debian will not work - but your phone will continue working fine.
There is no device right now that fits in your pocket that is going to be identical to your desktop. The hardware simply isn't there.
With easy debian you can install and upgrade whatever you want... if you break your debian installation - just blow it away and re-download the easy debian tarball and start over.
At no point did you hurt your phone.
If, OTOH, you start dabbling in porting software to maemo and start running things through maemo, or try installing debian deb's directly into the phone OS - then you can sudo-brick the phone. (nothing a reflash can't fix. In fact, I did my first "brick" last night by trying to make the phone auto-mount my ext3 formatted SD card. It wouldn't boot, because I did something wrong. I was back up and running in 10 minutes with a reflash and restore from backup).
Seriously, you can do what you want to it.. and then recover from it. The choices are yours.
But no - you're not really going to learn how to "use" Linux fully if the only Linux you have is in your pocket. But if your desktop and your phone are both Linux then you'll find you'll start learning quickly, and what you learn on one will be of use on the other (assuming they are both debian(based)).
Now, MeeGo OTOH is RPM based and not DEB based. So if you decide to start playing with MeeGo (which i intend to once there is a decent open UI and the phone works; thats my only requirements) - then what you learn on MeeGo may not be totally useful on Ubuntu desktop because the packaging system is different. You'll still get what makes Linux, Linux - but installing and removing packages will be different.
If you go MeeGo, it might be better to use Fedora on the Desktop for a totally similar solution between systems.
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When you start updating and messing with packages you start to get a more unique system and thus can experience different problems, have different packages work (but also not work) etc.
Easy Debian as a whole is a testers area. Nothing is guaranteed, and no one can promise anything beyond "Well, it worked for me!"
If I've helped you or you use any of my packages feel free to help me out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maintaining:
pyRadio - Pandora Radio on your N900, N810 or N800!