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	joerg_rw	2014-07-09 , 04:21
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#11

sure there are the nds-fire.nokia.com images still (if you can find them). Those are obviously meant for Nokiasuite and particularly for Nokia Service Points and Care Centers using Phenix service software. Probably this is also the reason why nobody been able to find the flasher-3.5 anywhere there, and it's anybody's guess how long those nds-fire.nokia.com images are still available. Nokia rather sooner than later will wrap up this end of their business as well.

I just wonder if the unconfirmed gossip been correct which rumored that Nokia stopped tabletsdev.maemo.org "because of security issues", and if those security issues been related in any way with Harmatten and the N9 which supposedly is capable to use some of the unrestricted flasher-3.5 functions and probably even the N900 MLO/xloader 1st stage bootloader to bypass the aegis fundament trustzone/HS. Just mere wild guessing.
[edit] I found this very interesting, looks amazingly similar to what flasher-3.5 does while talking to NOLO, and for sure is what N900 linux CPU is talking to BB5 modem when updating the modem firmware. Also might shed some light on N9 certs (R&D cert etc)

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Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-07-09 at 07:15.

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	Win7Mac	2014-07-10 , 22:17
	Community Council \| Posts: 664 \| Thanked: 1,648 times \| Joined on Apr 2012 @ Hamburg	#12

Originally Posted by shawnjefferson

Question for Hildon Foundation:
Will we ever hear officially what became of negotiations/discussions with Nokia? Are these still on-going?

Sure, as soon as the the process is finished.
And no, negotiations are settled, we're just waiting for another formality to be done: declare HiFo as the sole maintainer, controller and administrator of the Maemo Website and claim full responsibility which means proper adaption of our terms of use, privacy policy, Contribution Guidelines, licenses, trademarks, trademark usage guidelines and trademark FAQ.

Drafts for terms of use, privacy policy, Contribution Guidelines have been sent to council + board and since no concerns have been raised, are awaiting to be updated.

The last 4 are awaiting adaption and everybody is invited to participate.

Licenses - https://etherpad.mozilla.org/h2UoRHiBae
TM Terms Of Use - https://etherpad.mozilla.org/UHGCJQIeQA
TM Usage Guidelines - https://etherpad.mozilla.org/mHZKczF0y1
TM FAQ - https://etherpad.mozilla.org/AIc3c8Bnhe

As soon as these changes are approved by Nokia, an official announcement will be made. Basically, we're getting handed out the domain maemo.org and a license to use the trademark maemo.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

...Nokia ...hosting exactly those flashing tools and images, on maemo.org for years and ...suddenly this wasn't legal anymore. Quite sane!

And your conclusion to blame HiFo is... quite sane?

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

There once been a semi-official mirror of all those files, run by trusted community members and checked for correctness by council, but HiFo did a hell of a job to alienate, scare and threaten those who ran that server, instead of trying to do all they could to keep those guys providing that awesome service to whole community.

And you did a hell of a job to alienate, scare and threaten those who would have to show resposible for those servers... As much as I'd appreciate such an approach, HiFo would have acted illegally to officially support or even pay for such servers and you know that my friend.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

Links to random untrusted external "illegal" possibly rogue non-authentic and for sure non-maintainable non-stable non-persistent sources as a valid substitute for maemo.org providing the most essential tools and files?

Posting links in this forum or on IRC are not illegal, hosting is. That's the situation and we have to face it. I'm convinced we as a community will find a "sane" workaround.

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Android_808	2014-07-10 , 22:25
Posts: 1,203 \| Thanked: 3,027 times \| Joined on Dec 2010	#13

its a real shame they can't be hosted even if was behind a click through page clearly stating that they are not officially supported.

what would happen if cssu devs created there own firmware image?

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	woody14619	2014-07-15 , 05:00
	Posts: 1,455 \| Thanked: 3,309 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY	#14

Originally Posted by Android_808

its a real shame they can't be hosted even if was behind a click through page clearly stating that they are not officially supported.

what would happen if cssu devs created there own firmware image?

The issue is that the current firmware images have blobs and bits that are copyright and proprietary to Nokia and/or 3rd parties. Some of those companies gave Nokia permissions to redistribute their things. (eg: AdobeFlash 9.0) But those permissions are likely NOT transferable by Nokia to another entity.

Joerg has this "to hell with the rules" attitude when it's not his skin on the line. When it's other people, he's happy to argue the case and declare his interpretation of the law as the only possible sane and correct view. But you'll note he's "working by the rules" when it comes to Neo900. Why not just move all the funds to the new corporation? It's all in the proper spirit of getting Neo900 out the door, isn't it? But because it's him that would land in jail, he's not willing to risk it.

Bottom line is: Nokia can not (or simply is not willing to) legally transfer the rights needed to distribute the images they could legally distribute. Given that, HiFo can not legally distribute them. End of argument.

The contracts and EULA give Nokia alone the right to distribute, and their end users rights to hold and use those tools. To give others the right to distribute would require Nokia going back to the 3rd parties and updating contracts, and/or removing those items from the images, assuming you could do so without crippling Fremantle (doubtful). Even without the MS buyout, that wouldn't have happened. I know, because we asked, begged, and pleaded repeatedly over the past several years for just that and hit a brick wall every time. Even to Quim, and to Teo, as council, as HiFo, and as a community.

Legally, HiFo can not distribute these items. Because one delusional person believes otherwise is not a legal standing in a court of law. Think it is? Host them yourself, and proclaim who you are, so you can get sued and take on that court challenge with your belief. If you're right, you'll be loved by the community forever. If you're wrong, you wind up in jail. If you're not willing to take that risk on your own, then you're a hypocrite to insist others should be doing so on your behalf.

Edit: To be clear, the proverbial "you" above is not directed at any single person, especially not Android_808. This is to those that continue arguing that "we" have the "right" to do this, and bad mouth those who follow the law on this matter because it's the legally required thing to do.

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Last edited by woody14619; 2014-07-15 at 05:04. Reason: Adding clarifier

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	joerg_rw	2014-07-15 , 05:12
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#15

please everybody stop spreading lies and nonsense, and particularly
STOP GOING OFF TOPIC!

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	joerg_rw	2014-07-15 , 05:31
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#16

Originally Posted by Win7Mac

And you did a hell of a job to alienate, scare and threaten those who would have to show resposible for those servers.. As much as I'd appreciate such an approach, HiFo would have acted illegally to officially support or even pay for such servers and you know that my friend.

Posting links in this forum or on IRC are not illegal, hosting is. That's the situation and we have to face it. I'm convinced we as a community will find a "sane" workaround.

You assuming you have to take responsibility of any random server in the internet that is clearly illegally (again! for those who love to blame me an idiot for allegedly stating the opposite) hosting those blobs is simply silly and arrogant. Don't argue abusing your view of laws where mere Aristotelian logic already fails. And on a sidenote: posting links here in TMO is way less clear to be not illegal than you might think.

And when others (yes that's to you Woody) even ask for the operators of those illegal servers stating their name and address to relieve made up legal threat from HiFo, then I just can't get the desk that would stand the headdesking I feel urged to do.

What you conveniently ignore: there's a possibility to LEGALLY host the blobs:

. BY NOKIA!

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-07-15 at 05:43.

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jalyst	2014-07-15 , 06:02
Moderator \| Posts: 5,320 \| Thanked: 4,464 times \| Joined on Oct 2009	#17

Sigh, can't we continue talking this through in a constructive way, for once...
Surely if we all put our heads together (instead of battering them) we can find a solution, or a compromise?
It may not be perfect or permanent, & it may even be borderline (or 100%) legally contentious, but, it's better than nothing.

How can HiFo be held responsible if it can't be proven that they're the ones who instigated the illegal hosting?
How are we so sure that they'd most definitely be held liable? Surely they could make all efforts to have it removed & that'd be sufficient.
Alternatively, as pointed out perhaps we can convince Nokia (the new entity -free from MS's tentacles) to continue hosting longer-term?

Last edited by jalyst; 2014-07-15 at 06:07.

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	woody14619	2014-07-15 , 06:30
	Posts: 1,455 \| Thanked: 3,309 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY	#18

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

You assuming you have to take responsibility of any random server in the internet that is clearly illegally

Nobody is now, or has ever, claimed anyone must take responsibility for "random servers in the internet". The only person ever to claim that is you. But you already know that.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

And when others (yes that's to you Woody) even ask for the operators of those illegal servers stating their name and address to relieve legal threat from HiFo,

I said no such thing. I said if someone believes they have legal standing to distribute these images, they should take that belief to it's next logical step: To host them openly so they can prove their belief to be correct. Know anyone who's claimed these images are "open source" and are owned by the community via the EULA legal terms? I recall someone arguing that at some point...

When these were being hosted by whatever 3rd party was doing it, it was not being done openly. That implies that those involved knew it was at least legally questionable. Something you apparently still have trouble grasping.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

What you conveniently ignore: there's a possibility to LEGALLY host the blobs:
BY NOKIA!

Do you think that wasn't asked? Do you think nobody thought to ask Nokia if they could just host those few little things that they legally couldn't give rights to? IT WAS ASKED, MANY MANY TIMES. The answer was always NO. We asked that when Quim was still around. With every new representative we talked to, we asked again. Every shift in the contract, we asked again.

Can we host it? Can you host it for us? Can we arrange a third party that we pay and you direct to host it (like Nemien)? Can you contract us to host it for you for some minor sum, like 1€/year? These were all options we laid out and asked for, multiple times, in various configurations. The answer was always NO. Though they did take a week or two to consider that last one once...

From early on, Nokia has had no interest in doing anything beyond finishing what was already in the pipeline. Were it not for Quim putting them on the spot by starting the legal work before he left, and Council/HiFo/Techstaff pulling every week and performing minor miracles at times, this community would be nothing but a stale 2 year old Google cache hit right now.

Do you expect Microsoft will answer differently once they own the mobile division? HiFo can always ask again, not that MS has any more legal right to say yes than Nokia did. But if that answer remains NO, then HiFo still has no legal right to redistribute them. And you repeatedly moaning, whinging, stating otherwise, and implicitly blaming others for it not being so does nothing to change that. All it DOES serve to piss people off, and confuse those that don't know the history.

But then that's likely your goal, isn't it. Spread FUD, cause dissent and confusion, while trying to elevate your own standing. Eventually people get tired of arguing with you and leave, and in the end you can get your way. You can be last man standing... again.

Good luck with that, and the OM/FR4 reboot, aka Neo900. I've seen this show twice now. Damned if I'll stick around to watch it a 3rd time.

Good luck community. You're going to need it.

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Last edited by woody14619; 2014-07-15 at 06:33.

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jalyst	2014-07-15 , 06:49
Moderator \| Posts: 5,320 \| Thanked: 4,464 times \| Joined on Oct 2009	#19

Can we get off the personal insults please & just try to talk about solutions/approaches, it doesn't help for clear thinking when most of the focus is on attacking character.

Maybe Nokia still has some claim? I know D&S's is now owned by MS, but do we know that the Maemo/MeeGo element is absolutely without a doubt included in that?

Even if Nokia doesn't & MS is def. the holder now; I refer you back to the last 3 sentences in my prior post (except in the last sentence, substitute Nokia with MS).

Last edited by jalyst; 2014-07-15 at 06:59.

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	joerg_rw	2014-07-15 , 07:26
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#20

Originally Posted by woody14619

Nobody is now, or has ever, claimed anyone must take responsibility for "random servers in the internet". The only person ever to claim that is you. But you already know that.

again: STOP SPREADING LIES!!

Originally Posted by woody14619

I said no such thing. I said if someone believes they have legal standing to distribute these images, they should take that belief to it's next logical step: To host them openly so they can prove their belief to be correct. Know anyone who's claimed these images are "open source" and are owned by the community via the EULA legal terms? I recall someone arguing that at some point....

again: STOP SPREADING LIES!!

Originally Posted by woody14619

When these were being hosted by whatever 3rd party was doing it, it was not being done openly. That implies that those involved knew it was at least legally questionable. Something you apparently still have trouble grasping.

Indeed, I have trouble. Trouble to grasp what you're talking about resp how that's related to our topic. Mind to elaborate what you're trying to tell me (or probably others about me)?
I'm absolutely not interested in what some third party knew or didn't know. And I don't see why anybody in HiFo was. Or are you already contradicting your own statement in quoted section #1 above?

Originally Posted by woody14619

Do you think that wasn't asked?

I think (and 'blame', see next quoted section) HiFo failed epically to explain this obvious blunder by Nokia to the community - including council. (thus my "ask HiFo") Do you really think it's better to 'negotiate' with Nokia behind closed doors rather than bringing the PROBLEM to community's knowledge, so a huge number of concerned users can complain at Nokia directly?

Originally Posted by woody14619

[...] And you repeatedly moaning, whinging, stating otherwise, and implicitly blaming others for it not being so does nothing to change that. All it DOES serve to piss people off, and confuse those that don't know the history.

But then that's likely your goal, isn't it. Spread FUD, cause dissent and confusion, while trying to elevate your own standing. Eventually people get tired of arguing with you and leave, and in the end you can get your way. You can be last man standing... again.

Good luck with that, and the OM/FR4 reboot, aka Neo900. I've seen this show twice now. Damned if I'll stick around to watch it a 3rd time.

Good luck community. You're going to need it.

blablablabla. Oh yeah. I see who's going completely off topic, personal, and spreading FUD here. I'm not going to try and speculate about your motivations to do so. Just noticing that this FUD of yours is all meant to make me shut up resp blame me for what happened with HiFo and Nokia.