[RFC] On the roles of Maemo Council and Maemo e.V. - Page 20 - maemo.org

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	Win7Mac	2014-12-19 , 21:18
	Community Council \| Posts: 664 \| Thanked: 1,648 times \| Joined on Apr 2012 @ Hamburg	#191

okay... since Council elections are close and the referendum is one of the tasks for next Council period, let me revive this thread.

Most comments here indicate people are in favor of Council being disbanded. This would mean shifting their tasks and responsibilities to another group within MC eV. Naturally, this would fall into the hands of the General Meeting respectively active members. Alternatively, a working group could be established, by election or simply by volunteering. Board doesn't really come into consideration here, does it?

OTOH, the issue could as well be resolved by clearly defining/limiting Councils' responsibilities in a way that it cannot force board into anything they don't support, at least not anything that could affect their legal liability. Otherwise I don't see how we'll ever get any volunteers for board again. Just ask yourself: Would you run as candidate for board, given the above was not respected?
With my experience as HiFo director and having planned MC eV, I believe this is the way to go. It's a compromise that shouldn't hurt either side and harmonises the relation between Board and Council, which could then continue within MC eV. That's the way MC eV is designed and retaining this would minimize efforts to adjust bylaws or general regulations (of course, that'd just be a benefit but for itself should not be the reason to go this way).

I'm not very nostalgic, but I like good tradition.

My advise would be to keep Council, make good use of it and to not strain board resilience.
I'm staying out of either body in order to convey and to make sure we will have the broadest consensus possible.
Unfortunately, we can't please everybody, but if concerns arise, they should of course be considered.
MC eV regulations unlikely are perfect and this is our opportunity to improve them. Critics are welcome.

Please also note my and Woodys' posts above.
Let's make this referendum a strong plebiscite.
Peace

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Wikiwide	2014-12-20 , 01:28
Posts: 1,994 \| Thanked: 3,342 times \| Joined on Jun 2010 @ N900: Battery low. N950: torx 4 re-used once and fine; SIM port torn apart	#192

Originally Posted by Win7Mac

okay... since Council elections are close and the referendum is one of the tasks for next Council period, let me revive this thread.

Most comments here indicate people are in favor of Council being disbanded. This would mean shifting their tasks and responsibilities to another group within MC eV. Naturally, this would fall into the hands of the General Meeting respectively active members. Alternatively, a working group could be established, by election or simply by volunteering. Board doesn't really come into consideration here, does it?

...

I'm not very nostalgic, but I like good tradition.
My advise would be to keep Council, make good use of it and to not strain board resilience.
I'm staying out of either body in order to convey and to make sure we will have the broadest consensus possible.
Unfortunately, we can't please everybody, but if concerns arise, they should of course be considered.
MC eV regulations unlikely are perfect and this is our opportunity to improve them. Critics are welcome.

Please also note my and Woodys' posts above.
Let's make this referendum a strong plebiscite.
Peace

Ok... I dislike commenting on highly polarised, politicised topics, but my opinion is: keep the Council. I don't see a meaningful difference between Council and "a working group ... established, by election or simply by volunteering".

Besides, I am not sure how to contact Hildon Board aka e.V., and in which cases it should be contacted, if any. At the same time, I can find Council members at IRC, meeting regularly.

Originally Posted by Estel

The most prevalent things that I see in Council meeting logs, is fixing problems that some parts of Council (or Council as a whole) created. Kinda reminds me of body bravely fighting problems, that doesn't exist in other bodies.

And, doesn't the Council organise Coding Competitions, from time to time?

Best wishes.

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	Win7Mac	2014-12-20 , 01:35
	Community Council \| Posts: 664 \| Thanked: 1,648 times \| Joined on Apr 2012 @ Hamburg	#193

Originally Posted by Wikiwide

how to contact Hildon Board aka e.V...

HiFo Board: board[at]hildonfoundation[dot]org
MC eV Board: board[at]maemo[dot]org

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	Win7Mac	2014-12-22 , 02:24
	Community Council \| Posts: 664 \| Thanked: 1,648 times \| Joined on Apr 2012 @ Hamburg	#194

Originally Posted by reinob

Whether the Council is part of the e.V. or external to it is, IMHO, irrelevant.

Legally, it's not. If council wants to be external, there's no way it could overrule General Assemblys' decisions.
It also affects libility issues.

Originally Posted by reinob

Also I still don't quite see the role of the General Assembly (active members of Maemo e.V.), which are a necessary legal aspect but have no clear role in how things are done here.

Board recruits and gets elected by active members.
As stated repeatedly, this is a legal reuirement.

Originally Posted by reinob

The Board of directors execute both GA's [active members] and Council's [passive members] rulings, which may result in messy situations.

That's exactly why I suggested to define/limit Council role/resposibility rather than to abandon or exclude it.

PS: updated wiki

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	Estel	2014-12-22 , 05:59
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#195

I'm all for disbanding Council and establishing a volunteer's working group that get it's task (the ones that aren't obsolete, that is). The major problem with elected Council is that being elected given too strong (perceived, especially by Council members) mandate for "mundane" tasks that Council does.

It is the same with some democracies where president have only representative "powers" but gets elected - constant "power struggle. Yea, I know that it depends on Councilors elected - some don't get wrong ideas that being elected in voting gives them any more power that they should have - still, we should eliminate flaws in system, and powerless council with mandate of being elected is flawed (by) design.

Also, the Council name have accumulated (not for everyone, but I think that for many people) so much negativity, that even the name itself is a joke by now. We should erase it from future of Maemo, and replace it with respect work group(s), IMO.

/Estel

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juiceme	2014-12-22 , 08:23
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Originally Posted by Estel

I'm all for disbanding Council and establishing a volunteer's working group that get it's task (the ones that aren't obsolete, that is). The major problem with elected Council is that being elected given too strong (perceived, especially by Council members) mandate for "mundane" tasks that Council does.

Well, how would you select the people who are to do the general housekeeping tasks, then? I see elections being a good thing since that should help that people who get elected will have support, and hopefully be responsible about the tasks taken.

Originally Posted by Estel

Also, the Council name have accumulated (not for everyone, but I think that for many people) so much negativity, that even the name itself is a joke by now. We should erase it from future of Maemo, and replace it with respect work group(s), IMO.

The past division in the Council should be just anomaly, I hope. And the difference of opinion centered on one thing really so I think there'll be no such power struggles any more.

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	Estel	2014-12-23 , 02:38
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#197

Originally Posted by juiceme

Well, how would you select the people who are to do the general housekeeping tasks, then? I see elections being a good thing since that should help that people who get elected will have support, and hopefully be responsible about the tasks taken.

Exactly, like you choose moderators for TMO or tech staff - volunteers with correct skills, assigned by Board (or accepted by general assembly or whatsnot), not elected.

General rule of thumb is that for such tasks, you assign people with correct skills, not the ones that just want to do "something". Ironically, most people interested in doing humble housekeeping tasks doesn't bother to go through some elections, promoting themselves as candidates, etc. At the same time, you're likely to end with 5 vocal Councilors, that are good at doing 20% of "more glamorous" housekeeping, a no one to do the 80% rest, especially, if some of it require specific skills.

Think of it - it would be silly to ELECT every cleaning gentleman/lady in your building, right? Sure, you can choose between few offers, but ELECTION with CAMPAIGN for housekeeping? Seriously?

/Estel

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reinob	2014-12-23 , 09:18
Posts: 1,808 \| Thanked: 4,272 times \| Joined on Feb 2011 @ Germany	#198

Originally Posted by Win7Mac

Legally, it's not. If council wants to be external, there's no way it could overrule General Assemblys' decisions.
It also affects libility issues.

Board recruits and gets elected by active members.
As stated repeatedly, this is a legal reuirement.

Which is what I said. I understand it's a legal requirement. But I also understand that the role of the GA does not quite fit in this community.

Not everyone here will want to (or be allowed to) become a member of the e.V.

So as long as the Council represents the community "at large" (i.e. not only the e.V. members) it cannot be integrated into the e.V. Which brings us, again, to the potential conflict between the Council and the GA, as the Board is bound to execute both, but Council and GA will only have a (small) overlap.

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juiceme	2014-12-23 , 11:19
Community Council \| Posts: 4,920 \| Thanked: 12,867 times \| Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland	#199

Originally Posted by reinob

Not everyone here will want to (or be allowed to) become a member of the e.V.

I grant the "not all will want to" part but AFAIK "everyone is allowed to"

Can you prove me wrong?

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reinob	2014-12-23 , 13:31
Posts: 1,808 \| Thanked: 4,272 times \| Joined on Feb 2011 @ Germany	#200

Originally Posted by juiceme

I grant the "not all will want to" part but AFAIK "everyone is allowed to"
Can you prove me wrong?

(2) Mitglied des Vereins kann jede natürliche oder juristische Person werden, die seine Ziele unterstützt, natürliche Personen müssen das 14. Lebensjahr vollendet haben.

Admittedly far-fetched, but I bet a few 13-year olds exist who would be interested.

Plus,

Wenn ein Mitglied gegen die Ziele und Interessen des Vereins schwer verstossen hat oder trotz schriftlicher bzw. elektronischer Mahnung wiederholt Verstösse begangen hat, kann es durch den Vorstand mit sofortiger Wirkung ausgeschlossen werden. Der Ausschließungsbeschluss ist dem Auszuschließenden schriftlich, elektronisch oder per email mit Begründung bekannt zu geben.

Which, notwithstanding that German is not my mother tongue, means that the Board can kick anyone out. There's enough animosity among a number of members here that this can turn into a non-hypothetical scenario.

Plus I have no clue if some higher-ranked German (or even EU) law prevents non-EU citizens or North-Koreans or **** for all I care from becoming members, passive or active, of an e.V. There's probably 3 books the size of my house dealing with these aspects, but I'm not going to be the one looking for that.

Re. **** I was going to add something along the lines of how some (minority of) Germans are speaking out (read: puking) their minds about some religious and/or cultural aspects which don't quite affect me but piss me off nonetheless.

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