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2010-03-18
, 14:24
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#212
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Originally Posted by Venemo
Many people have already expressed their take on this...
My point is, what's the problem with Fedora? What's the problem with being Fedora-based?
Originally Posted by deadmalc
This is entirely an end-user perspective. Drop to a shell and start doing some configurations and tuning of everything and you'll quickly see a difference between Fedora and Ubuntu... or rather Fedora and Anything.
I love fedora, and it fits well for my usage - but my desktop looks identical to a friend who runs ubuntu - we use the same apps. I'm happier with fedora - he is happier with ubuntu.
While many commands are the same, many of the configuration files are in completely different locations.
I haven't met an RPM-based system that felt "normal" to me, yet. So I'm hoping MeeGo works out. I still haven't spent much time looking around the Moblin I setup on my Netbook just to see it.
But I tend to do more on my system than click on buttons.. which puts me into the minority and makes me not the target market when dealing with mobile platforms.
(Keep in mind that I say it's not "normal" doesn't mean an Ubuntu admin can't stumble his way around an RPM system - most the commands are still there - it's just not.. right. Hard to explain.)
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2010-03-18
, 14:30
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Posts: 415 |
Thanked: 182 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
@ Leeds UK
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#213
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Originally Posted by fatalsaint
I agree completely, I've been using linux for over ten years now - and I am definitely NOT a normal user.
This is entirely an end-user perspective. Drop to a shell and start doing some configurations and tuning of everything and you'll quickly see a difference between Fedora and Ubuntu... or rather Fedora and Anything.
While many commands are the same, many of the configuration files are in completely different locations.
I haven't met an RPM-based system that felt "normal" to me, yet. So I'm hoping MeeGo works out. I still haven't spent much time looking around the Moblin I setup on my Netbook just to see it.
But I tend to do more on my system than click on buttons.. which puts me into the minority and makes me not the target market when dealing with mobile platforms.
(Keep in mind that I say it's not "normal" doesn't mean an Ubuntu admin can't stumble his way around an RPM system - most the commands are still there - it's just not.. right. Hard to explain.)
And I get what you mean about being not "normal" - but try using AIX! ;-)
__________________
Life on the edge....always waiting to fall
Life on the edge....always waiting to fall
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2010-03-18
, 14:33
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#214
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Originally Posted by deadmalc
Oh I have... HP-UX just isn't right either
And I get what you mean about being not "normal" - but try using AIX! ;-)
. *BSD and Solaris (10) are a little better... but I would be equally put off had MeeGo decided to base on any of the above just as much as Fedora 
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2010-03-18
, 14:39
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Posts: 1,096 |
Thanked: 760 times |
Joined on Dec 2008
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#215
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i think, from following the debate when the info was released, the reasons for rpm package format are:
The moblin bootstrap stuff is way better than maemo and is what will be used for booting future devices and this is some of the hardest to repackage(I say yay for faster boot times!)
In order to make it easier on developers across a wide array of devices and platforms, it has been mutually decided to use the SUSE open build service.(yay for this, ask most any maemo developer about packaging for maemo and getting in repository and I think you will find that the process needs MUCH improvement)
it has been mutually decided to use zypper for rpm pacakge management which is very apt-like but also supports delta updates which is especially important on a mobile device with potentially constrained file space and bandwidth. (Yay for this so everytime we need to download an update for a package, you just need to download th changes and no the entire package)
these are very valid considerations IMO and I am sure the debate between the moblin team and the maemo team did not take the shape of a religious war.
I would say it would still be possible, even with the use of RPM for a package format to maintain a somewhat debian like filesystem layout. the two are not mutually exclusive.
The moblin bootstrap stuff is way better than maemo and is what will be used for booting future devices and this is some of the hardest to repackage(I say yay for faster boot times!)
In order to make it easier on developers across a wide array of devices and platforms, it has been mutually decided to use the SUSE open build service.(yay for this, ask most any maemo developer about packaging for maemo and getting in repository and I think you will find that the process needs MUCH improvement)
it has been mutually decided to use zypper for rpm pacakge management which is very apt-like but also supports delta updates which is especially important on a mobile device with potentially constrained file space and bandwidth. (Yay for this so everytime we need to download an update for a package, you just need to download th changes and no the entire package)
these are very valid considerations IMO and I am sure the debate between the moblin team and the maemo team did not take the shape of a religious war.
I would say it would still be possible, even with the use of RPM for a package format to maintain a somewhat debian like filesystem layout. the two are not mutually exclusive.
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2010-03-18
, 14:57
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Posts: 1,096 |
Thanked: 760 times |
Joined on Dec 2008
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#216
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Originally Posted by Funklord
rpm is not a package _manager_, it is a package _format_. yes, in some distros(redhat) RPM has been the name of both the package format and the package manager, but in the sense of meego this is not the case.
I think many of you old timers are forgetting...
RPM is the reason why so many other package managers exist.
Just about all other distros have tried to evaluate RPM it at one time or another in the hope of a "unified package manager", but found the format flawed beyond repair.
The technical situation may have changed slightly since then, but nothing will change the bad reputation and legacy that rpm has.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised anybody still uses rpm, given the much superior alternatives for package management that exist today, such as portage.
Now, if a sane layout of the base filesystem on meego is too much to ask for, and forcing package maintainers to work harder just to convert to an archaic package manager is considered a smart move, you can count me gone from this community, faster than I got here.
portage is not a package _format_ it is a package _manager_. Ebuild is the package format for gentoo, Portage is the package manager.
there are various package _managers_ for packages in any format, deb, rpm, ebuild whatever. In the case of meego, we will be using the rpm package _format_ with the zypper _manager_
hope that helps
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2010-03-19
, 03:17
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Posts: 1,341 |
Thanked: 708 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#217
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I see the problem is Debian, which still stubbornly use deb-package format, although in LSB it was agreed RPM is the package format used in LSB compliant systems.
This Maemo -> Meego thing is just an another example how things get difficult as one system have been excused before not to follow the agreed standard. Standards are good(tm) and makes eventually lots of things easier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_S...package_format
Also I like the RPM's standard way to GPG-sign the packages so we know who to blame when package has Trojans or viruses.
This Maemo -> Meego thing is just an another example how things get difficult as one system have been excused before not to follow the agreed standard. Standards are good(tm) and makes eventually lots of things easier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_S...package_format
Also I like the RPM's standard way to GPG-sign the packages so we know who to blame when package has Trojans or viruses.
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2010-03-19
, 04:54
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Posts: 149 |
Thanked: 140 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
@ YUL
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#218
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Originally Posted by zimon
The LSB is backed by the Linux Fondation (a consortium of private compagnies). The decision to choose RPM was arguably driven by the interest of its members.
I see the problem is Debian, which still stubbornly use deb-package format, although in LSB it was agreed RPM is the package format used in LSB compliant systems.
This Maemo -> Meego thing is just an another example how things get difficult as one system have been excused before not to follow the agreed standard. Standards are good(tm) and makes eventually lots of things easier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_S...package_format
Also I like the RPM's standard way to GPG-sign the packages so we know who to blame when package has Trojans or viruses.
That being said, Debian is a community driven distro. Debian was never "excused" to continue using deb. The community decided to do so and they were free to do so. Please.
The LSB failed to account for a great deal of very popular distro (Ubuntu, Debian and Mint to name a few).
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Questions and answers on Maemo 5, the N900 and MeeGo @ http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect
Questions and answers on Maemo 5, the N900 and MeeGo @ http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect
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2010-03-19
, 08:30
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Posts: 946 |
Thanked: 1,650 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Germany
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#219
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Originally Posted by Venemo
please read the updates: MeeGo is not Fedora based! it's not based on any of the major distributions. IMHO that's the real problem..
My point is, what's the problem with Fedora? What's the problem with being Fedora-based?
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2010-03-19
, 09:24
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#220
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For all intents and purposes the two formats (can) provide the same level of functionality. While this wasn't communicated well, RPM wasn't chosen, it is a consequence of other choices (OBS and others hinted, probably more clear after the MeeGo - or Harmattan - SDK is released).
The standard does not dictate what package format the software system must use for its own packages, merely that RPM must be supported to allow packages from third-party distributors to be installed on a conforming system.
Debian has been using strong crypto to validate downloaded packages. This is commonly called "secure apt" (or "apt-secure") and was implemented in Apt version 0.6 in 2003, which Debian migrated to in 2005.
Now, stop the format bickering, it's pointless.
Originally Posted by zimon
Let's get a few facts straight.
I see the problem is Debian, which still stubbornly use deb-package format, although in LSB it was agreed RPM is the package format used in LSB compliant systems.
The standard does not dictate what package format the software system must use for its own packages, merely that RPM must be supported to allow packages from third-party distributors to be installed on a conforming system.
Debian has been using strong crypto to validate downloaded packages. This is commonly called "secure apt" (or "apt-secure") and was implemented in Apt version 0.6 in 2003, which Debian migrated to in 2005.
Now, stop the format bickering, it's pointless.
__________________
Blogging about mobile linux - The Penguin Moves!
Maintainer of PyQt (see introduction and docs), AppWatch, QuickBrownFox, etc
Blogging about mobile linux - The Penguin Moves!
Maintainer of PyQt (see introduction and docs), AppWatch, QuickBrownFox, etc
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| Tags |
| rabble-rousing, rpm vs. deb war, rpmligion vs debligion, vote attila77 |
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All times are GMT. The time now is 07:31.
I really haven't got much experience with Linux. I try some of them every now and then (Fedora and Ubuntu more recently), but I haven't noticed any difference between them on the surface.
(Also, because of my job, I must use Windows, so I didn't give a try to any of them for more than a couple of hours, but they seemed good enough to me.)