Please tell me where I've said that. I've never said that. Please stop lying about what I've said. Putting words in my mouth really is insulting.

I've never had a problem with people pursuing Meego. In fact, I've wished those who were doing so luck, since I think it's a good thing. My main objection (again, something you'd know had you read the thread) was them coming here and discouraging development on Maemo, saying developers should instead target to MeeGo because it's "more open" and "more future proof".

If you're going to be insulting, you should at least get your facts straight.

Btw: When the previous discussion on "more open" was held was frankly the last time I looked at Meego. At that time, there were no "open" components for GSM, wifi, and a number of other components. If that's changed in the past couple months, great. But that's taking your word for it that these exist, as I'm not seeing it reflected on the MeeGo CE pages.

The "Summer Release" didn't have open components for any of the parts you're talking about. That's the last release I see for MeeGo CE / N900 on the site. Yes, I'm sure there's a bleeding edge daily build I can go try, and that may have all that in it now, but frankly I need a working phone more than I need to check the latest MeeGo updates.

As for saying "it's all on the MeeGo site", sorry, but that site isn't quite what I'd call organized or easy to navigate. From what I'm finding, the last thing listed is the Summer Release, and all the notes for it still look like it's pre-release. So saying it's the world's bad for not following the IRC channel and magically somehow knowing which thread or wiki pages to follow to keep up seems a bit unrealistic.

If I understood correctly, the closed components are still there, but there are open replacement parts readily or almost readily available if needed (but they are not used because of lesser quality/functionality). Not verified myself though.

@ woody14619

I would tend to agree with you wrt meego (or any other group) people discouraging further maemo development, however there ae a number of important things worth consideration.

whilst neother OS can be seen as truly "open", Meego is a lot closer to the mark than Maemo, and with that in mind, lends itself to further development and sustainability than Maemo.

It is worth mentioning that Nokia appers to be giving more support to Meego development on the N900 than it is giving ongoing support to Maemo on the same device (Dev team funding for project and ongoing development/refinement of closed binary blobs to get the OS running smoothly on the N900)

ref: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1...kages/armv7hl/

for those non-oss components being used for CE builds.

the fact that there is so much more than just drivers that are closed in maemo (and that the closed components are so embedded in to the OS that trying to replace them breaks so much), is why some devs would argue that it's better to put efforts into a system with a more open core, given that long term sustainability of the OS is moe likely to be viable via upstream support.

Meego works on the N900. is it such a bad thing that (for now) using Nokia's closed components will provide the best/most efficient experience wrt hardware interaction and usability? Especially if the alternatives either don't yet exist or are inferior?

Surely that's up to them?

First, let me say, thank you for the wonderful post on what's going on with MeeGo. I'm happy to hear an update about where things are at right now (and a little about how it got there). I'd really wish there was a simple Wiki page somewhere for those of us that are tacitly following it, so we could see where it is without having to read a whole forum, and join mail lists, and/or have MeeGo community members bring up unknown changes in status in arguments here.

One thing that's noticeably lacking is any information about anything since the "summer release". Is there another release planned? It sounds like things are moving to 1.3? From the look of the wiki, you'd guess the project is dead, since it's not seen an update since before the last release. (In fact, finding a link to the summer release page isn't that easy...)

I agree with much of what you said, but have to say, not so much on the topic of the UI. The UI may just be candy to some, but it's quite important on a mobile device. It doesn't matter what a device core is capable of if you can't operate it because the UI is poor, missing, or lacking. Anyone who's used a first-gen device vs something more matured will tell you, UI is vital. The other components are important as well, but the UI is not just "fluff". If the UI isn't there, that core isn't going to get used.

That's not entirely true. Frankly, there's been little kernel level development in the past year or so that would impact most users of the N900, or developers for that matter. How does a new GPS stack help someone writing a QT based web widget for the N900? It doesn't. The existing GPS stack has a few bugs, but for the most part it works pretty well. Some new functionality (h.e.n., packet injection, battery module status, etc) is nice, but we wouldn't be "utterly screwed" without it.

That's not to say that kernel activity is unimportant. It's great that people are doing that, since it does open things up and brings new features and options. But it's not something that's going to make or break the N900. It is vitally important to MeeGo, since adapting an open driver to a new system will be easier. But for the N900 in general, it's just not that vital.

No... They deserve admiration and thanks. Respect is not something you can purchase or trade for, it's something earned through treating others in a sound and respectable way.

Programmers in particular confuse thanks and respect often. Generally you don't get respect for doing a particular bit of work. You get respect sometimes because to pull off X or Y you have to be socially pleasant enough to cooperate with others, coordinate an effort, and inspire others to do things. You can also get it by explaining how you did technical things so others understand it, without being rude or condescending. Through that some people do gain respect, which others (or even they) may attribute to doing X or Y, but it's more about the journey of getting there than about the act of work itself.

And that's where we disagree. This would be like saying "there's no need to target Windows XP any more, Vista is the future!" Sure, some companies do that. But reality is there are still lots of users running XP, and will be for a long while yet. Especially when "Vista" isn't ready for the average consumer.

As for having to redistribute full images, that's hogwash. There are plenty of closed parts replaced by CSSU at the package level, without images. I do get that there will be limits. But again, the current system can do a lot already, and there's a solid API for tacking in lots of new functionality.

I've seen completely open community efforts end just as poorly. The OpenMoko project springs to mind, along with it's derivatives and accomplices, none of which has seen standard adoption in anything yet. They put out to bits of hardware, and to this day none of the project images can do three simple tasks that my N900 does almost daily:

1. Connect to a tower, and stay connected.
2. Ring when a call comes in, and show a UI in time to answer it.
3. Route audio to and from a bluetooth headset for said call.

Most distros can do 1 & 2, but not 3. The few that can do 3, can't do 1 or 2 reliably. Even the android ports (there are 3 of them) fail to do all 3.

And least we think MeeGo is magical for having corporate sponsors, I ask: Where's Ofono today? You remember Ofono, right? The project Nokia and Intel started back in 08, an open source phone stack that got adopted into just about nothing? Well, nothing may be harsh... the FreeRunner and the N900 both have a distro or two that attempt to use it.

Just because it's got more open components doesn't mean people will flock to it. It has to actually run on something, in a stable way, in order to pick up steam. Having a busted (or no) UI means it will die just as quickly as the projects above. That's one advantage Maemo has: There's already a user base out there. Lots of people are actively using Maemo on their Nokia N**0 devices. That alone will keep things ticking here for a good long time, unless MeeGo actually gets to the point of being usable as a stable, every day distro. Until that happens, why discourage development here? On an active, stable platform with a good number of users...

In theory, I agree. The problem is, until MeeGo is at least a functional, stable base (say, as stable as Maemo PR 1.1), people will not move to it. And without a user base, will it really be maintained in the long run?

One of the big arguments I've heard for moving to MeeGo is that the N900 is no longer being produced, and the by moving to MeeGo we can ride the coat tails of future MeeGo devices. There's a problem with that though: None of the new MeeGo devices are going to be ARM. Even assuming developers start making apps in pure QT, or Java, or some other "platform independent" code system, we know those won't always work across all platforms. How many QT apps for the N900 work on the N800? Why would MeeGo be different? And most developers aren't going to target/test their apps for an older platform that didn't ship with MeeGo on it, hoping someone is using the back-port of the OS for that device.

I see that, but I have to ask: how long will that last? If there are no new N900s being made, how long will there be development and "community support" for MeeGo CE? Once the N9 is on shelves, I'm betting most of the effort will probably focus to updating and maintaining that existing platform, vs a back-port that was intended only for developers initially. They're targeting the N900 right now because there's not another common hardware kit they can use as a target. The tail edge of the window for having a working MeeGo system on the N900 is very quickly approaching. If it's not in place before new hardware is out, good odds it won't get there (so experience tells me).

I totally understand that logic, and why some would choose to follow that. I wish them well, but I don't intend to follow that path based on where things are now. The problem I see is that MeeGo CE hasn't even hit the stability level of the initial release of Freemantle 1.0, yet alone 1.3 or 1.3+CSSU. This is a classic "one in the hand vs two in the bush" situation. Some would chase the two in the bush, and maybe they'll even catch them. But I'm not convinced that MeeGo is going to make it to the point that it's going to even match Maemo in functionality, yet alone rival it. I will happily be proven wrong if it happens. But my past experience tells me the bird in hand is the safer bet. (Better, I'll take your bird, and you can go after the two in the bush. If you don't catch them we'll have one bird still, if you do, we'll have three! )

Again, I'm not against MeeGo. I just don't see it as being mature enough to compete with Maemo yet. My objection isn't that MeeGo exists, or that people would be drawn to it. My objection is people coming here to hype it, saying continuing development on Maemo is a waste of time when you could be working on MeeGo.

The way I see it, if I write something for Maemo, I have a forum full of users that will happily try it, and maybe use it for many years to come. Is the same true of MeeGo? Is anyone (outside of the hand full of developers working on it) using MeeGo as their day-to-day OS in the real world? I'm thinking that user base is small, if it exists at all. So why discourage people from developing in Maemo?

you're certainly correct in that Meego on N900 as it stands is probably more of a dev OS than a user one.

i've stated previously, comments similar to one of your earlier posts, that the UI is a major key to attracting a larger user base.
It's functional and works, albeit a little disjointed in uniformity (then again, so are many applications written for maemo).

as for general usage, i for one can say categorically, I've missed more calls due to the sh*tty screen lock bug in Maemo than I have with Meego, so arguing for stability against maemo 1.0 or 1.1 could possibly bring up a LOT of issues that we, as users have forgotten about (blocked from our minds?) following on from the subsequent releases of pr1.2 and pr 1.3.

Hell I even tried some of the SHR builds and found aspects of that OS/UI better than pr1.1!

don't get me wrong here though. i love maemo, however I'm happy to commit time and my n900 to the Meego project if only to identify and file bugs for the dev team.
i can say so far that every bug I've filed has been clearly investigated and actioned, and that at least, breeds confidence that the team is atually working to address common use case issues whilst still working on the core OS.

the great thing about the N900 is even if MeegoCE ends up gooing nowhere, i can always flash it back to maemo

Search thread for "wasted"...

Because it's not changed. For example, Wi-Fi on Meego has always worked without closed blobs. The issue is the MAC address and the regulatory stuff, which require access to the CAL partition -- another part that despite being several open reimplementations Meego for the N900 still uses the Nokia blob (someone tell me why?).

So, warm welcome to my club. Keep Maemo, and forget about community updates, CSSU releases and new Meego versions. It's all too bleeding edge. I need a working phone.

But don't say it's moot which one is more open. One will stagnate. The other might not.

There you go you got all the answers in your post so why when people come on and tell you that meego is just not making the grade you have a go at them then come on here with a post of your very own and point out exactly what i said in my post !!!.

If you cannot listen to critisism then you should not be involved in the project full stop.

I will repeat your words ok.........

"you're certainly correct in that Meego on N900 as it stands is probably more of a dev OS than a user one"

Get meego to a usable and functionable os and NOT a dev's os.

"i've stated previously, comments similar to one of your earlier posts, that the UI is a major key to attracting a larger user base."

The ui is crap and you very well know it !!!.

The development has just NOT made meego usable from a non dev's point of view and untill it is you will NEVER attract people outside of development (general users).

Meego IS slow and non usable with far too many components missing and the very reasons are within your own post.

When you lot move this to a use"able" os that can take over Maemo will be the day it will be popular.

It is now 1st SEPTEMBER 2011 please note that ok.

With all due respect joorin you need to look at the whole mess from start to now and then look at what has actually been achieved, THEN you will see just what progress has actually been made over that period.

If you lot were paid developers for Meego i would sack the lot of you simple as that and i do not mince my words here !.

Development is just no way reaching ANY targets if you look at the time scale from day one to today the 1st September 2011.

Meego is STILL at development stage with a useless ui that is not even half way there yet as so many components are missing STILL.

Please be realistic here and look at what has actually happened ok.