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2014-08-28
, 15:25
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Posts: 8 |
Thanked: 18 times |
Joined on Aug 2014
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#212
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Seriously if I was a Jolla employee and I was reading this whole thread I would have definitely resigned and search for a job in Apple/Microsoft giving the finger to Open Source and the whole OPEN ideology because if this is what you get for beeing as open as possible and you get that kind of responses from the community then why bother? (thank god that kind of responses only come from a handful of people)
Some people have to understand that Jolla is a company and as a company they need to survive financially, they are not a charity, neither a non-profit organisation. A tiny startup company that have to follow the rules of the market and those rules won't permit the level of opennes some people want to have for a thousand reasons.
So if those people keep bitching about some non real problem on forums like this and still haven't changed their phones (or have done that but still bitch arround here saying the same non-sense), then I am sorry this smells fishy (not sailfishy) about what they really want to achieve.
Life is too short to waste on that kind of tiny things, move on and stop trolling (unless you are paid to do so).
Last edited by MemphisX; 2014-08-28 at 15:30.
Some people have to understand that Jolla is a company and as a company they need to survive financially, they are not a charity, neither a non-profit organisation. A tiny startup company that have to follow the rules of the market and those rules won't permit the level of opennes some people want to have for a thousand reasons.
So if those people keep bitching about some non real problem on forums like this and still haven't changed their phones (or have done that but still bitch arround here saying the same non-sense), then I am sorry this smells fishy (not sailfishy) about what they really want to achieve.
Life is too short to waste on that kind of tiny things, move on and stop trolling (unless you are paid to do so).
Last edited by MemphisX; 2014-08-28 at 15:30.
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2014-08-28
, 15:31
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Posts: 2,355 |
Thanked: 5,249 times |
Joined on Jan 2009
@ Barcelona
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#213
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Originally Posted by Jedibeeftrix
I don't think so.
Silly question perhaps, but; does the re-licensing of QT make this prospect more or less likely?
Personally, I see this as one of Jolla's failures. It would be nice to have an "explanation" =) on why a component that is supposed to be entirely developed in house and for which there seems to be some demand is not yet OSS.
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2014-08-28
, 15:48
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Posts: 702 |
Thanked: 2,059 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ UK
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#214
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Is there a reason why the Silica components need to be open sourced?
Is there a benefit to Jolla and therefore the community for non-Jolla people to be working on the Silica components?
Does it make strategic sense?
It seems to be massively important to some people. Equally it's massively important to some people that the device can be reflashed. These seem like really minor things to me personally (I'd rather see CardDAV, better CalDAV and SIP _personally_) but perhaps I'm just not understanding why it's so important.
Is there a benefit to Jolla and therefore the community for non-Jolla people to be working on the Silica components?
Does it make strategic sense?
It seems to be massively important to some people. Equally it's massively important to some people that the device can be reflashed. These seem like really minor things to me personally (I'd rather see CardDAV, better CalDAV and SIP _personally_) but perhaps I'm just not understanding why it's so important.
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2014-08-28
, 16:00
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Posts: 80 |
Thanked: 59 times |
Joined on Aug 2012
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#215
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Originally Posted by pycage
Ah, that's what you are afraid of - media. I don't think media are that evil like you suggest. If media are telling obvious lies about a product, then usually companies ask them kindly to correct that. Otherwise there are always legal methods for them to correct obvious lie. I remember when first reviews of Jolla appeared in portals like Engadget and The Verge. The review was shock to many people at Jolla - "how someone could criticize our absolutely awesome, ground-breaking and innovative child... ?"
Official statements can easily backfire with the media happily spreading the news enriched with some made-up extra-information to generate more clicks.
I remember that just after the launch I was helping Polish portal dobreprogramy.pl to have chance to test Jolla phone. I wrote a mail to Stefano if he could get a phone for review and he said that I should contact Marianne Holmund which was handling press and making list of media wanting to review freshly released Jolla phone. But I have found faster route - short time later Thomas Ruecker (tbr) who was going to Poland in December agreed that he could help with giving his unit as he will be visiting Wrocław. So I wrote once again to Stefano, that there is no need as tbr already promised that he will give them the phone to review. Stefano answer was very, very strange and consisted of one sentence:
so... wait a sec is he planning to let this guy review the phone _publicly_ ?
Not sure if I understand what you are asking, but in the end there will be review on the website (like they review other devices).
That is the problem
Since we don't know what SW will be used and we have internal guidelines on what SW to hand out to Press and obviously Thomas does not know them.
I will talk to him.
Stefano
http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/29/5...nds-on-preview
They considered The Verge review completely unfair, but it was entirely fair - what portal wrote in article was a set of valid criticism around issues they've encountered with the product.
So the whole problem was that Jolla employees were living in a bubble for a long time, how awesome and talented they are and what absolutely great product they've created that millions of people will want to have. Moreover, they will prove how Nokia was wrong to ditch Meego and get rid of the awesome people connected with it at Nokia. It was very important, it was a matter of honour and ambition (do you remember Vesku shouting on stage "Nokia were cowards"). That certainty has heavily crashed with first cold reviews, later with sales under expectations and withdraw of some European operators that previously wanted to sell Jolla (http://web.archive.org/web/201310060....3.dk/d/jolla/).
My theory is that atmosphere in Jolla is like of people trapped in besieged fortress for long time. "We were supposed to put world at our feet, but we are attacked from all sides"
Their overreactions to criticsm, calling people trolls, paranoid etc. if they have different opinions like Pango or me. Jolla employees try to misrepresent critical opinions, discredit people expressing them etc. Unfortunately some of the devoted believers of Jolla in the community are joining this and using the same methods. That way reasonable people, that are tired of candy PR will leave soon and Jolla will be in new bubble with its community believers.
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2014-08-28
, 16:02
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Posts: 752 |
Thanked: 2,808 times |
Joined on Jan 2011
@ Czech Republic
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#216
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Originally Posted by aegis
It was quite beneficial to me, when developing, to look into the source code of Silica to understand how the particular element is supposed to work.
Is there a reason why the Silica components need to be open sourced?
Is there a benefit to Jolla and therefore the community for non-Jolla people to be working on the Silica components?
The QML part is open source already and I don't think I've had the need to look through through the C++ bits (if they were available), but I can't rule it out.
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2014-08-28
, 16:08
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Posts: 3,404 |
Thanked: 4,474 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ Germany
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#217
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Originally Posted by fk_lx
Keep in mind that tbr's phone was likely not a normal phone, but a developer's prototype with unreleased software.
So in other words, that shows that Jolla didn't want for press to test normal Jollas at that time that people bought in store, but specially prepared ones to create illusion that the phone is better than it is.
So IMHO Stefano's reaction was justified and the right thing to do.
__________________
Tidings - RSS and Podcast aggregator for Jolla - https://github.com/pycage/tidings
Cargo Dock - file/cloud manager for Jolla - https://github.com/pycage/cargodock
Tidings - RSS and Podcast aggregator for Jolla - https://github.com/pycage/tidings
Cargo Dock - file/cloud manager for Jolla - https://github.com/pycage/cargodock
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2014-08-28
, 16:08
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Posts: 80 |
Thanked: 59 times |
Joined on Aug 2012
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#218
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Originally Posted by aegis
There is a benefit, people could try to adapt Sailfish UI for example for desktop or help to further develop it and fix bugs. Besides it's not about benefits, but about promises. If someone promises of open sourcing Silica components on biggest FLOSS conference in Europe - FOSDEM (2013), to make some buzz and attract people, then later withdraws, softens it's statement with every month, to make it only half open, then it is clearly not ok and PR trick.
Is there a benefit to Jolla and therefore the community for non-Jolla people to be working on the Silica components?
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2014-08-28
, 16:08
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Posts: 123 |
Thanked: 430 times |
Joined on Dec 2013
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#219
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Originally Posted by fk_lx
So the whole problem was that Jolla employees were living in a bubble for a long time, how awesome and talented they are and what absolutely great product they've created that millions of people will want to have. Moreover, they will prove how Nokia was wrong to ditch Meego and get rid of the awesome people connected with it at Nokia. It was very important, it was a matter of honour and ambition (do you remember Vesku shouting on stage "Nokia were cowards"). That certainty has heavily crashed with first cold reviews, later with sales under expectations and withdraw of some European operators that previously wanted to sell Jolla (http://web.archive.org/web/201310060....3.dk/d/jolla/).
Where in that page it says that they are going to sell Jolla in Denmark? By the way isn't that operator selling Jolla in Hongkong?
| The Following User Says Thank You to MisterMaster For This Useful Post: | ||
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2014-08-28
, 16:14
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Posts: 114 |
Thanked: 37 times |
Joined on Aug 2014
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#220
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Originally Posted by Philippe
I think I have provided examples on this thread, but just a quick look more at the SIM card update from Jolla:
Somehow seems I am still misunderstanding you as I can't figure out what you want. As asked before, please give a concrete example (the contents can be entirely fictional of course).
"After investigating this thoroughly we have been able to isolate the root cause.
Should you encounter any SIM related issues, please submit a request to Care and they will help you."
Here's a bit more transparent version:
"After investigating this thoroughly we have been able to isolate the root cause. Turns out there is small amount of left flanges missing from an early Jolla batch. In such a case, we'll install a left flange at no cost as part of warranty service.
Should you encounter any SIM related issues, please submit a request to Care and they will help you."
It really doesn't have to be very elaborate to be a lot more transparent. During the pre-order deliveries, quick progress note or few, with actual info on the progress, would have been more than enough too.
Originally Posted by Philippe
You could explain what the cause is, no need to go into the minute details. You know, there are options between no explanation and minute details. No? This is not your average consumer product, this is an early adopter, enthusiast product. People care about such things. And some info during the wait for a solution can help with the wait. I'd hardly consider a rough explanation of the operation the phone will undergo for a fix as minute details.
Ok I am stumped. So you get the info we are looking into it and will avise once we found the cause. What else can we say? And once the cause found you get the info needed to get it solved. So you do ask for the minute details... You just contradicted yourself.
Looking at that TJC thread, giving some explanation seems to just common courtesy too. These people had been raising an important issue, why not respect them with an answer when they asked so many times?
Originally Posted by Philippe
Well, it was - and still isn't - my intent to imply a systematic SIM card holder problem. But I must admit, the silence seemed damning, as if there might be a huge problem to be silenced. That's what silence does. It gets filled with doubts and speculation. Like I said, I think it would be in Jolla's benefit - and that of the community - to increase transparency.
It is not a contradiction. If there was a sim card holder problem it would be systematic. What happened was that somewhere in the chain there had been some bad QA and as in any production some devices/components are faulty due to manufacturing mistakes. That is why there is warranty and why they are warranty cases. If there was a problem, like bad design or so that would have been a problem. Of course for a single person recieving a device with a faulty component that causes malfunctions is a problem. And I worded it badly, it was not a batch of phones, but rather a batch of phones with an abnormally high amount of specific faulty component.
Originally Posted by Philippe
If you want to see it that way. In reality, what I'm asking for is neither unreasonable, nor unprecedented.
And this discussion about semantics and understanding points out why it might have been a good idea not to say anything.
Originally Posted by Philippe
I am happy to hear there have been changes.
There have been changes luckily. But at the time everything was so chaotic that it took a while before people got their mind made up about what to say and how. And it took too long indeed.
Originally Posted by Philippe
I have no personal issues with Sailfish development style. I think Jolla is also doing many things right there. That's it too, seems like on a software engineer level Jolla is working pretty solidly, it is the corp comms, strategic moves and phone business part that has been lacking transparency and openness.
But I would say Jolla is pretty transparent, and apart from not having time to answer all questions. Or having to balance things with commercial interests (it's a company after all). I do not understand what more you would like. If we can help we usually do. Like here: https://together.jolla.com/question/...-mode-chooser/
Where else do you get that kind of service?
Originally Posted by Philippe
And my experience is that there is a culture of silence, instead of a culture of transparency, in there (in the areas mentioned above). That is the external perception. Just letting you know. And by that I mean beyond what I'd reasonably expect as business secrets. I don't expect all being out in the open for a business, of course.
But we are not all knowing beings and we cannot just decide on our own what is best for Jolla. It's a team and a team effort.
Originally Posted by Philippe
You mean fk_rx's list?
Regarding your list:
Originally Posted by Philippe
You can improve current communications. That would be the best way to show things have changed. Besides, I think you are about the first sailor I remember going into such detail and critical look on the matter in public. That's refreshing. Keep it up, smells like transparency. Import it to your work place too.
* I think the pre-orders has been spitted out enough and Jolla/sailors have admitted communication could have been better. But that is the past and cannot be changed
Originally Posted by Philippe
Perhaps the scale was minimal, but I still think the TJC thread getting some explanation would have made Jolla look better than what it now did. The point wasn't about a broken SIM holder in some phones (understandable, although unfortunate), it was about how to handle the complaint in the best way possible. I offered my views.
* Sim holder. As just explained, an extra visible excess of warranty cases, over-dramatized and exagerrated by certain individuals
Originally Posted by Philippe
I guess you are referring to fk_lx's list, but I don't recall personally commenting on the FOSS aspect. I think Jolla's participation in FOSS projects is OK, although there have been surprising limitations actually making Jolla one of the less open source solutions on the market. But as I'm not personally very big on FOSS anyway, I don't mind that as much as some. I would like Jolla to be honest, frank and upfront about such things though, so improved comms and added transparency over these is always welcome.
* Neglecting co-operation with open source community... Can you give any examples where we have not done that? We cannot give into all frivolities either. It is not because some people want a bugzilla we should give it. Other people wanted a forum and so on... We submit lots of our patches upstream, they do stay not in our trees and people don't have to go pick them out of the sources. I mean we even fix bug reports out in the open if that applies. There are occasional hiccups and some people don't always get what they want (and can be very vocal about that) but we also have limited resources and things that give us legal headaches (like the QC binaries). But I don't think we are neglecting it.
Originally Posted by Philippe
Others are more qualified than myself to comment on stuff like Silica, but I think one reason again is the lack of transparency in the comms department. You need to realize that you are probably one of the bigger contributors from Jolla, regarding these tough issues, in months if ever in this thread. Keep this rate up and you'd be pretty darn near as a company to what I'd call transparent enough.
* Silica open sourcing. Well yes that has been mentioned, but due to lots of overworked people and a host of other things it has not happened yet. And unlike people think it is not as simple as slapping a license on it and put it in a public place. It's unfortunate it has not been realized yet, but slapping a date on it and making another promise without knowing if we can make that date is not going to help anybody. But then again some people will not accept "as soon as we can" as a valid answer.
Originally Posted by Philippe
I base very little of my opinion's on fk_lx's vendetta. But in reverse, I would suggest that you - and others at and around Jolla - also stop ignoring fk_lx's view point because of his vendetta. The vengeful stuff is easy enough to tell apart. There are good points also in his posts, do take heart.
Also I would ask you to do your research and actually make up your own mind. Especially not basing it on the coloured viewpoints of a person with a vendetta.
Like I said, I want Jolla to succeed. Lately I haven't been feeling the love.
Silly question perhaps, but; does the re-licensing of QT make this prospect more or less likely?
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTc2ODI