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Laughing Man |
2009-10-29
, 02:07
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Posts: 4,556 |
Thanked: 1,624 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#241
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True you could do both camps. But if your seeking to only own one device then for what nilchak wants it seems Android fills the need quite nicely. Better than Maemo since the benefits of Maemo are only secondary interest to him.
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Originally Posted by ysss
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2009-10-29
, 02:15
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Posts: 203 |
Thanked: 68 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
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#242
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Originally Posted by johnkzin
You could be right. I see the logic of this argument. But my experience of Linux as purely and end user is there really isn't much, if anything, I miss from Windows. I think mostly you just get more crap (and viruses too).
And, while Nokia might be great at developing the core apps, and give us more core/free apps than Android does ... that's just one company with finite resources. Even if they get a few more companies into the fold, it's not going to be as fruitful as the hordes of people developing useful utilities on Android. Even if some are crap, even if most are crap, there's more monkeys in that room than in Maemo's room. (though, unfortunately, neither has infinite monkeys).
It may play out differently in the mobile platform market, but if it plays out the way it has in the desktop Linux world, I think things will be fine. It's not just a question of more monkeys in a room. It's a question of who those monkey's are. A disproportionate number of developers like the open-source world, because they're free to make things how they want--not just at the application level, but with the whole device and platform. So Maemo may have less monkeys in the room, but a higher precentage of smarter more dedicated and more innovative monkeys.
I could see it going either way.
Originally Posted by johnkzin
This could either be a brilliant idea, to leach off of Android's success and bring some of the sweetness back to Nokia. Or it would be a total disaster, because it would just make Maemo a platform for Google to parasitize all the more easily. On top of which, once people get into the Android Market and like it, they may likely just feel like it makes more sense to have an Android device (which no doubt will be better streamlined to work with Android apps). I am inclined to think the disaster scenario is much more likely. But I'm also inclined to think Maemo and every non-Android platform will be parasitized by Google anyway (see my last post).2) develop a Dalvik engine for Maemo, so that Maemo can harness the Android momentum. Thus allowing Maemo users to receive from it, and allowing Maemo developers to contribute to it. They can probably leverage some of the work that Canonical is already putting into this (to get Dalvik running on Ubuntu).
I think the only strategy with a hope of combating Google is to play their game. Give Maemo away to other device manufacturers. Offer a real alternative. Give up on having the device sale be the primary source of revenue. Go after the services and applications market with a real alternative. Of course this also probably means become an advertister like Google. And Google may already just have way too much of a head start.
Honestly, I'm happy with Maemo having a smaller chunk of the market and remaining more dedicated to open-source. I think it will be less, but better. This may not be what Nokia wants though. It's not the road to riches.
Last edited by cb474; 2009-10-29 at 02:19.
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2009-10-29
, 03:01
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Posts: 963 |
Thanked: 626 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
@ Connecticut, USA
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#243
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Originally Posted by cb474
I am of the opinion that Dalvik in Maemo is a good thing for Maemo. In fact, I think it is crucial. It neutralizes the appeal of Android devices that can only run Dalvik, and showcases why Maemo is so much more powerful. Maemo devices can run Dalvik, Qt, GTK, C, C++, Python, Ruby, etc! Yes, it defeats the strategy of making Symbian more appealing through Maemo. But Symbian is a dead end any way. That is why I say that Nokia should give up on Symbian and put all its weight behind Maemo.
This could either be a brilliant idea, to leach off of Android's success and bring some of the sweetness back to Nokia. Or it would be a total disaster, because it would just make Maemo a platform for Google to parasitize all the more easily. On top of which, once people get into the Android Market and like it, they may likely just feel like it makes more sense to have an Android device (which no doubt will be better streamlined to work with Android apps). I am inclined to think the disaster scenario is much more likely. But I'm also inclined to think Maemo and every non-Android platform will be parasitized by Google anyway (see my last post).
Originally Posted by cb474
Not so fast there. Maemo can be quite appealing in its own right and especially when pared to Nokia's better devices. With Dalvik running inside Maemo, why go with an Android device?
I think the only strategy with a hope of combating Google is to play their game. Give Maemo away to other device manufacturers. Offer a real alternative. Give up on having the device sale be the primary source of revenue. Go after the services and applications market with a real alternative. Of course this also probably means become an advertister like Google. And Google may already just have way too much of a head start.
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2009-10-29
, 03:19
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Posts: 1,097 |
Thanked: 650 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
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#244
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Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Mind you I am not saying I will rush to the platform which has the most apps - in that case I would have choosen iPhone.
It seems you should be in the Android camp and not Maemo camp then. Because no matter how far Maemo goes it'll always be behind the iPhone, Android, and what not in those consumer apps.
What I want is usefull apss and a few killer apps (like the Google Navigation app). If Maemo can provide me that - inspite of having lesser number of apps in all (with lesser fart apps as well) I am ok with that.
The thing that bothers me is having system tools as 50 - 70% of the apps count. That's not what I am looking for.
Frankly I have been a linux enthusiast since a long time - have used Linux on my desktops and laptops since Mandrake Linux and those days. Now at this point in my life - I find that I am not driven by my OS religion - I am driven by my use cases. I want function first out of technology. So camps don't apeal to me - functionality of those camps do. But I do hear you.
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2009-10-29
, 03:22
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Posts: 4,556 |
Thanked: 1,624 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#245
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Ah, I'm similar in that fashion. It's just that the system tools on the Maemo side and functionality it offers would require hacking other operating systems to get it working.
I wonder if the browser in the n900 have the geolocation support. That combined with Google Maps would go a long way.. If not that browser, maybe fennec.
I wonder if the browser in the n900 have the geolocation support. That combined with Google Maps would go a long way.. If not that browser, maybe fennec.
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Originally Posted by ysss
They're maemo and MeeGo...
"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...
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2009-10-29
, 03:30
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Posts: 147 |
Thanked: 42 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
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#246
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Originally Posted by quipper8
It's for the iNuts. "Oh look, shiny object!"
what is the big gold area in the middle of the dpad? I mean, what in the world is it?
Probably is the "Select" button.
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2009-10-29
, 03:46
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Posts: 1,255 |
Thanked: 393 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ US
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#247
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Folks, when people notice they have about 150 megs of free space for apps and that is about it- Droid will not seem so bright and shiny. They will have even less when Flash 10.1 comes out.
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2009-10-29
, 04:11
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Posts: 203 |
Thanked: 68 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
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#248
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Originally Posted by rm42
I agree that Symbian is dead (or Nokia will kill itself in the smartphone market if they remain dedicated to it). And I can totally see the argument about how Dalvik could help Maemo. But I think it could also be a real losing argument for Nokia to say, hey look we run Android apps too! For a lot of users they may well just say, then why shouldn't I just get an Android device? After all, it's a sign of Apple's relative weakness and marginality in the desktop market that they have to provide Boot Camp and Microsoft does nothing of the kind in return.
I am of the opinion that Dalvik in Maemo is a good thing for Maemo. In fact, I think it is crucial. It neutralizes the appeal of Android devices that can only run Dalvik, and showcases why Maemo is so much more powerful. Maemo devices can run Dalvik, Qt, GTK, C, C++, Python, Ruby, etc! Yes, it defeats the strategy of making Symbian more appealing through Maemo. But Symbian is a dead end any way. That is why I say that Nokia should give up on Symbian and put all its weight behind Maemo.
Not so fast there. Maemo can be quite appealing in its own right and especially when pared to Nokia's better devices. With Dalvik running inside Maemo, why go with an Android device?
So I'm not saying Meamo wouldn't technically speaking be more awesome if it ran Dalvik. I'm just not convinced it would be a winning strategy for Nokia in the smartphone market. For a sophisticated user they will see how much more powerful Maemo is, if it can run Dalvik. But for the kind of mass market consumer that made the iPhone a runaway success and who will now also flock to Android devices, I think they're looking for a few applications and services, executed in a slick and well integrated fashion. The device that does that the best will appeal to the most people. I can't remember if I said it in this thread or elsewhere, but I think one of the fundamental appeals of the iPhone is that it limits choices. Most people don't want too many choices. They just want the appearance that they're getting the best of the few things they need (whether it's really the best or not).
So it may just be confusing in the end if Maemo devices can run a lot of different virtual platforms like Dalvik. The average end user may just think, why does it have to do all these different things? Why don't they just make it simple and well integrated like the iPhone/Android?
And even for those who stick with Meamo, if those Dalvik based apps dovetail nicely with Google Voice, Google Maps, Gmail, and other services Google provides (by which I mean if in the background they help Google grow its massive cross-referenced data base of user behavior and concomitantly advertise to Meamo users), then Google will end up potentially getting more revenue out of Meamo devices than Nokia does.
You could be right, but for me in the big picture Dalvik on a Maemo device is one more avenue for Google to get its tentacles into even a competitors device. I don't think that's a strategy for going up against Google. It's what Google wants.
Last edited by cb474; 2009-10-29 at 04:20.
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2009-10-29
, 04:40
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Posts: 1,878 |
Thanked: 646 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
@ San Jose, CA
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#249
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Originally Posted by cb474
If that were true, then by your logic, Apple would shrivel up and die, because "why not just get a windows machine?"
After all, it's a sign of Apple's relative weakness and marginality in the desktop market that they have to provide Boot Camp and Microsoft does nothing of the kind in return.
The majority of Apple customers, in my observation, run OS X only. Almost NONE of them buy Apple for exclusively running Windows (some do, though -- Apple laptops are often the best Windows laptops on the market).
Apple understands that they have a certain market segment. They do things to reach outside of that market segment (compatibility efforts, conversion efforts, etc.), but primarily they cater to their core market. And, as a result, that core market is fiercely loyal to them (irrationally so).
Nokia can forge that same path:
1) Better hardware
2) Better UI (Android's base UI is _ok_, but it's not amazing ... the interesting Android UI's are from the individual vendors, and I'm not convinced any of those are amazing either; but, aside from the portrait mode issues, it seems to me that Maemo5's UI is well ahead of Android).
3) A core market that the other player(s) (Android _AND_ iPhone) have completely neglected (key low level/expert-user features and low-level open-ness).
They probably need to find another advantage as well ... a use case (other than IT professionals, but don't abandon the IT professionals either) that sets them apart from Android and Apple. And then RUN with them. Perfect those 4 advantages, and I predit Nokia will get a sustainable base of fiercely loyal customers.
And Dalvik will _enchance_ it, not undermine it.
The pitfall scenario is "OS/2". Where Windows 16 compatibilty (in the Windows 16 era) meant that no one had to develop for OS/2 to get OS/2 market ... so there was no advantage to developing for OS/2. So no one did. But, OS/2 apps weren't faster or better integrated into the platform than Win16 apps. Native Maemo apps are/will-be faster and better integrated than Dalvik apps, by simple necessity of being native. Plus, OS/2 didn't have a better UI (different, not better), didn't have an existing expert user base (it was entirely new, very different/odd, and so there wasn't this existing community of experts who could easily jump right in), and it didn't have better hardware (the exact same hardware userbase as Windows16 ... only, even less, because not everything had OS/2 drivers).
I don't think the OS/2 scenario is as likely here. I think there are lots of things that differentiate Maemo+Dalvik from OS/2+Win16.
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2009-10-29
, 05:14
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Posts: 1,096 |
Thanked: 760 times |
Joined on Dec 2008
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#250
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Originally Posted by cb474
I agree that Symbian is dead (or Nokia will kill itself in the smartphone market if they remain dedicated to it).
I don't know about that statement. There are millions of blackberrys still being sold with an interface just about as ugly and old as symbian. I don't think symbian is going away anytime soon, it is a good competitor in the business market against blackberry.
Nokia is big enough that it can do maemo AND s60 AND s40
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| Tags |
| comparison, competition, droid, fight, milestone, motorola droid, motorola milestone, n900, nokia n900 |
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