You do if you want anyone to take your point of view seriously.

Sorry, but if you're not willing to explain your point of view, you deserve to not have people bother listening to you. If you can't be bothered to explain yourself, I can't be bothered to listen to you.

And telling others to "go read my posts" for that information is both childish and, in your case, misleading. I've read most of your posts, and frankly you've never tried to explain anything you've said or done. So there's no place to "go read" that does what you're saying.

Man up... Explain your reasons for your viewpoints. If nothing else it will help you clarify your own views, and give others insight on how you come to conclusions.

You're on crack. It targets x86 for the same reason Maemo does: emulation and debugging. Most people have PCs that they want to develop on and do virtual testing to get the easy 90% of the bugs out of the way on without having to debug on the device.

So let me ask this again. What other ARM based devices are planned to run MeeGo? 0. None. Zip. And since there aren't millions of ARM based PCs that people are going to use to debug their code on, ARM has a limited life cycle on MeeGo once non-ARM devices are introduced.

Right now, it's there for N900/N950/N9. But once the N9 hits the market, N900 specific hacks will be less and less supported. And once the N9 is gone and Intel based systems are out, ARM support will go away even more. The only way that's going to change is if more ARM based devices become available running MeeGo. That could happen, in which case we're in luck. But none have been announced yet beyond the N9 (by any company, not just Nokia). Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

And where did I say that? I never said MeeGo wasn't intended to run on the N900. I said the N900 was never designed with the intent that it would run MeeGo. You're calling fud on me say X was not intended for Y, when what I said was Y was not intended for X. Maybe if you read what people are writing instead of just screaming "FUD" all the time you wouldn't make such simple mis-interpretations.

And lets be clear here. MeeGo added support for the N900 early because it was the only device that met the criteria for it's design purposes. MeeGo needed a device that:

• Allowed users to flash/boot a new OS at will (or boot from sd)
• Was produced in the past year or two
• Had enough memory, storage and processor space
• Was produced in enough quantity to be reasonably available
• Handled all the hardware expected in new devices (3G, GSM,wifi, bt, etc)
• Had a viable and established open-source community around it

Again, I'm not talking about how many projects there are, or how many more developers there were for X vs Y. I talking about pure and simple numbers here. There are more N900s out there, and the hardware (minus the USB port) is robust enough and modern enough that it's not being outdated as quickly as it's ancestors.

You're comparing apples and amigas. They're not the same.

Again, you're totally allowed to think that. I, personally, do not think MeegoCE is going to ever get to the point that it can do what Maemo did from the day it shipped, yet alone what it can do now. And if it can't do that, it's not going to prevent the demise of the device any more than iOS updating is going to help it. If it makes it to something even close to feature parity with PR1.0 (or better), then I may change my tune. But right now, where I see it going, it's not going to make it. I'd love to be proven wrong... I really would. But I just don't think it's going to happen.

I don't understand why I have to spend time making the tools to parse the data while you can just throw around your opinions.

Maybe. What's your point? As I said I don't have data during the N810's peak, so I can't extract any meaningful data from it. If I had, the same argument could surely be made about the N8x0 peaks.

So I tested it.
For August 2011, there were only 145 unique N900 applications updated.
For February 2009, there were 219 unique N8x0 applications updated.
So yes, during N900 times there are more builds per application than during N810 times.

However, I do not see why you're pointing this out, because it plays against the N900. Even less software is being updated for the N900 than what I thought!

Data seems to say otherwise. Plus, are you by any chance saying that the N8x0 developers didn't get experienced with the platform after 2 years?

I guess you should try and take off your N900-centric glasses.

So, by that reasoning, its main target is ARM, as it only targets x86 for emulation and debugging. Why are you point this to me?

It was you the one who was FUDing saying Meego's main target is x86!

So what? Are there any devices planned to run Maemo, other than the N9?

I think the quality of arguments is again decreasing.
It seems stupid to me that you are arguing that ARM devices are scarce. Specially to developers of a distro whose main target is ARM. You should go shopping around sometime. A hint: there are predictions saying it's going to take over x86. Note that I disagree, but the fact these predictions exist probably say something about the number of "ARM based PCs" currently around.


So. My main point in this argument has always been that the fact that these hacks (closed blobs, etc.) are present in a much more reduced number in the MeegoCE for the N900, it will be MUCH easier to keep those supported. The Maemo ones are already dead. How many times will I have to repeat this?

The rest of this message is just answering for the fun of it. You can ignore it if you want...


I don't understand how you were able to, on a single paragraph, both mention "the release of the N9 is going to hurt Meego for the N900" and "the release of the N9 is the going to help".

You're going to also say there were conditional statements on this one? MeegoCE has _obviously_ been promised to work on the N900.

Well, please instate your intentions clearlier then. I don't understand why you are using this as an argument either way. Both the software manufacturer (MeegoCE team) and the hardware manufacturer (Nokia) are kinda keen on getting MeegoCE on the N900. It's not like they've sued each other.

I don't know, wouldn't that be because Nokia paid for it to happen? I'm just completely surprised how can you ignore this documented fact and instead go on and reinvent history.


Ah, another N900centrism. You all sept2009ers could try and be a little less N900 centric, really.

For a start, the N8x0 is a) more resilient b ) has around the same specs than the iPhone 1 (both being release around the same time).
There are obviously not more N810s out there, but as data shows, the interesting users/total users ratio was much, much higher in N810 times.


I do not think MeegoCE is going to get to the point that it can do what Maemo did from the day it shipped either.

That's not changing my predictions though. You can read why on my previous messages.

I believe what's going on here is called "projection". You seem to think that because you think X about MeeGo, that I think the same thing about Maemo. Since to you Maemo is dead and the the "only way forward" is with MeeGo, you project that I think MeeGo is dead and the only way forward is with Maemo. That's simply not the case. Please... read what I'm saying. Not what you think I'm saying. For example:

See? This is a blatant lie. I really dislike when people claim I've said something when I never said it. I never said MeeGo's main target is x86! I didn't even know MeeGo had an x86 target until you brought it up! Why would you attribute me with claiming something about a target I didn't even know existed until 2 posts ago?

Again, just targeting a platform does not mean it's designed to run on that platform! My example was the MAEMO has an x86 target for debugging purposes only. Even though it has that target, there are no released devices on x86 hardware, and never will be. Does the fact Maemo has a target for x86 mean Maemo was designed for x86? No.

I assume that MeeGo has an x86 target for similar debugging purposes, as I know of no devices coming up for it running x86. But I never stated anything about MeeGo being targeted for x86.

My objection was to you claiming that "MeeGo can target ARM, ergo it's designed for it." I'm saying, that's not necessarily the case.


I believe MeeGo targeted ARM because Nokia had several potential platform targets slated that were also ARM (N950/N9 and beyond). I also believe the N900 was the only sufficient device to do development on, thus it's choice for a special back-port. Now that Nokia has shifted, it isn't committed to bringing MeeGo to several more ARM based devices. The only announced future MeeGo devices (from LG & Intel) are running Atom or Snapdragon. I therefor suspect ARM support will wither, or at the very least become stagnant or far less active.

Call that FUD if you like. I call that logic.

Again... If another ARM based device is in someone's pipeline, that could change. But I don't know of any. DO YOU? (Third time I've asked....)

No, there aren't. Which is why I'm not claiming Maemo is the savior of the ARM universe and the only path people should be working for the N900. I'm also not saying that there will be updates monthly, forever and ever for the N900. You, on the other hand, are saying MeeGo will see "much more development" that will somehow magically translate to MeeGoCE and apply to the N900. I'm disagreeing with the later part of that assumption (and partially with the former part of it as well, now that Nokia is backing away from MeeGo).

My viewpoint is that currently Maemo is superior in stability and maturity, and I don't see MeeGo reaching even a vaguely similar point before being incompatible with the N900 hardware. That's it... End of sentence. Anything else rattling around in your head about "x86 targets" and which one is more future proof is all your own doing.

Sigh.. Again, please stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said ARM based devices are scarce. In fact, in sheer numbers, there are already more ARM devices in the world today than there are Intel x86/P# based devices. The thing is, most people don't see ARM based computers as "computers". ARM has a totally different market segment, living mainly in the embedded and realtime world. I know, I work in that segment. I have 9 ARM based devices on my desk right now, not including the N900.

Most of those ARM based devices are small, slow, low-power, single-task systems. Most don't have a display of any sort, and are tied to simple devices that help perform the single function they're designed to accomplish. ARM chipsets are designed to make a quick one-off prototype that can then be mass marketed, and generally run on low power (or batteries) for long periods of time. It's only recently that ARM has been edging into the PC market, and that's only because the "smart phone" trend has pushed them into the low-power tablet market. There will always be a place for both. ARMs are just starting to become more visible now, since they are slowly catching up speed wise (1Ghz range), while Intel has plateaued for some time now in the 3Ghz area.

Reality is that the N900 is one of the few mass-marketed devices that met the criteria for running MeeGo. Show me another ARM based device on the market that has GSM, wifi, a keyboard, touch screen, Gigs of space, reasonable ram, and a fast core with an open bootloader. Just one? Can't, can you? No. Simple choice on Nokia/MeeGo's part, until there's another one to replace it (like the N9).


Yes, you've stated that many, many times. I acknowledged that I understood that you think that. I disagree in part because the fact that they're still closed means it will take sustained work to keep them going as the software around them changes. And eventually there may hit a point (MeeGo 2.0? 3.0?) Where the binaries no longer will be adaptable.

My concern is that I don't see enough progress happening between now and when that eventual point is reached to make MeeGo an improvement over what's already available in Maemo.

Again, I think your idea of "dead" is different than mine. I can still talk to wifi devices. I can still use bluetooth. I can still make GSM calls. Maemo binary blobs won't stop working because some new update in the core software causes an incompatibility. I don't see that as "dead".

I understand that by "dead" you mean the software around the blobs won't be updated much. And that the linkage will eventually cause (or is already causing) limits in what can be changed outside of that. I get that, I really do. But I also don't see as much of a need for change, as the basics of the system are fully functional in Maemo, where they sometimes are not in MeeGo.

What's hard to understand? With the N9 coming out, development will shift to it, and away from the N900. That means fewer people working on the N900, which means fewer people fixing and tweaking (or caring about) the N900. The fact that N9 is still ARM helps extend out how long the ARM branch has people working in/on it in MeeGo in general, which does help the N900. But make no mistake, once the shift toward the N9 happens, the N900 experience will start to degrade. And once the N9 passes it's 6 month window, without another ARM based device on the horizon, the entire ARM branch will start to close down.

The N9 is a mixed blessing. It helps and hurts at the same time. How is that hard to understand? Not everything is black and white. The world is really a lot of grey with a few areas of sharp contrast that people interpret as pure white or black lines. I really think there are few things that are truly back or white though.

By whom? Nokia has never promised it. MeeGo has never promised it. MeeGo CE has never promised that MeeGo would ever be "productised" or ready for the average N900 user. Who promised it? Please PLEASE PLEASE site that?

MeeGo CE is a community project that Nokia threw some money at to get a working base for their future phone slate. They did it to help the transition to the N950 and N9, which were very similar hardware wise. Nokia wanted to ramp up MeeGo so it would be ready for those launches. With the N950 dropped, and once N9 launches, I'm willing to bet good money that Nokia pulls every developer they have (contract or in-house) off the MeeGoCE project in 6 to 12 months; and that's being generous. It's just what they did with Diablo when Freemantle came around, and Freemantle when Harmattan work started. Why do you think MeeGo CE will be different?

At least with the N900 there was some room to think maybe it would be a little different because of the sheer number of devices being pumped out. (And an actual ad campaign, using real money.) But with things as they are for the N9, and no future devices lined up? When Nokia pulls that plug, how long will it be before the existing non-paid project members scatter for the next new thing? Will that be enough time to make it stable? Or to make those new blobs useful enough for people to convert?

I thought it was quite clear... And many people here who are thanking and joining in the conversation have had no difficulty understanding my point or meaning. You seem to be the only one that's unable to understand what I'm writing.

I think the issue here is you're just skimming what I'm reading, or making assumptions about what I'm thinking (projection) and reading things in that I'm not saying. There are several examples over the past dozen replies you've made (two in this post alone) where you claim I said something that I never said. When I ask for you to site where I said it, you can't because I never said it. You just think I said it, because you assume I'm the opposite of you. The one time you did cite something, it was something I said in a very conditional way, in a very specific context which was unrelated to what we were discussing.

Not for nothing, but when I claim you've said something, I almost always site it directly in the reply. That clears up this problem. When I think you're implying something, I ask if that's your view. I don't assume it is and pronounce that you've said it, when in fact you have not. You may want to try that some time... It's far less insulting and inflammatory.

Who's re-inventing history? Yes, Nokia paid for it. They paid for it because there was no real support for MeeGo on ARM until Nokia joined the party. Most of Nokias past devices and their future slate were all ARM based products. Of course they're going to pay people to bring the base to an ARM based device, so their first new device isn't the only thing ever to run it.

Nokia paid to bring enough support to MeeGo (via MeeGoCE) so that it could at least partially run it on the closest device they had to the upcoming devices. That gave them the experience they needed and a reasonable code base to start with for their upcoming slate. Choosing the N900 for that was just common sense.

What isn't common sense is what you seem to be claiming is obvious based on these facts. The fact that Nokia paid to have MeeGo partially backported to the N900 doesn't mean:

• Nokia is dedicating to bringing a full release of MeeGo to the N900
• Nokia is providing back-porting for MeeGo until it's stable and ready for Maemo users to convert to it
• That MeeGoCE is going to continue developing much beyond the N9 launch.

Fine... The N8x0 was sooo much better than the N900. It's even better than the iPhone1, just like you said... Happy? Yes, I'm N900 centric because it was my first device. If anything, that should mean I'm less married to Maemo, as I wasn't using it for a decade before the N900 came out.

Facts are facts. There were more N900s made than N8x0s. The production run was bigger, and there was a real advertising budget. Trying to compare the two is kind of pointless. I'm still not entirely clear why you're even comparing the two. Yes, production ends, development peeks, and declines. The same has either already happened, or will happen for MeeGo CE once the N9 is launched. That's, in fact, the crux of both of our arguments. We're just predicting different outcomes based on those inputs.

Tell me: When the N900 was announced, how much work happened on Diablo on Nokias part after that date? Why do you think that MeeGo CE is going to continue to see funding from Nokia once the N9 is launched? With Nokia not having a single MeeGo device slated after the N9, I'm not convinced they'll even be supporting MeeGo proper in 6 months, yet alone MeeGo CE.

And that's fine. It may in fact be the only point we agree on.

My bet is that functionality is going to keep more people than the shinny new half-baked MeeGo CE will attract, especially once Nokia drops it like a hot potato at the end of the month to go chase the N9 crowd and it's new line of WP7 devices.

Your bet would appear to be that MeeGo will continue to grow, and drag CE along for the ride. And that somehow that's going to attract more N900 people because it's "more update-able".

Like I said, we'll see in a couple years which pans out to be right.

So, you didn't knew that Meego had an x86 target.... but you did know there was a Atom device in the pipeline? Well, I didn't.
So you say there are no Meego ARM devices in the pipeline, but you did know there is a Snapdragon in the pipeline? Well, Snapdragon is ARM. But that there's a Snapdragon device in the pipeline is news to me too.

So you say "Maemo is not designed for x86 because there's a x86 target". Therefore I understand that you think Maemo is designed for ARM. Well, MeegoCE is designed for ARM. What other architecture could it be designed for?

I am going to tell you of a few devices on the Meego pipeline: the N900. The N950. And the N9. And I don't mean Harmattan.

And _some_ of the MeegoCE development will come to the N900. For a start, there's the Components port. If that's not N9 development coming to the N900, I don't know what is.

So you now think that most people don't see ARM devices as computers. Most people don't know what ARM is. Of those who do, virtually all of them know they are _computers_ in the proper sense. On a noob forum I could understand such confusion.

But on THIS forum? You don't seem to have been here for long...

So you think the only device that has "GSM, wifi, a keyboard, touch screen, Gigs of space, reasonable ram, and a fast core with an open bootloader" is the N900. More stupidy. Have you looked at the list of _ARM_ devices Meego has been ported to? And why do you think GSM, keyboard are required?

Even the Beagleboard made it.

But more important, why wouldn't they _use_ the N900? Nokia paid for it.

So you think your closed blobs won't stop working. I hope you know that Google is currently implementing a special workaround in their servers for N900 video call support. When Google stops caring about the N900 (and I bet they will rather soon), you'd hopefully understand why it would have been better if you had been using the opensource Meego call UI.

Sometimes I do at least.

So you think that when development moves to the N9, MeegoCE people that are paid to work on the N900 will be first to move to the N9. Sure, they will move. But _all_ other developers will move there first.

If you only knew a bit of the people involved. Those are the guys that still pushed for the N8x0 MBX drivers despite the N900 being out.

You also fail to understand something. If you use a product way past its official support time, you no longer are "average user". Get that in your little head. Stop complaining about stuff not being made for the average user like if it was important for you, because the "average user" has already made another "voluntary" $600 contribution to Nokia and moved on.

You are here. MeegoCE project is targeting you. Take that as hint and contribute.

Little. But please note that MeegoCE is _already_ a larger effort from Nokia to release updated stuff for a past device than the previous attemps (HE editions) were. As said, that's virtually the only argument you N900-centric people can use.
But seemingly don't want.

And the fact that you don't even want to compare to the N8x0 (same forum, virtually same device & software, same company behind it, virtually same employees, virtually same userbase) should make you rethink the facts twice at least.




I'm getting tired of your complete _horrible_ mistakes about the history and the facts of Meego, like "no real support for MeeGo on ARM until Nokia joined the party" (how could that be if NOKIA IS THE DAMN FOUNDER OF MEEGO!!!!!!!!!), that when I rebuff you start saying that "I meant to say" or "you should have understood that".

If you want to keep this flamewar, please Google a bit before posting.

Yes... I read news articles and forums on occasion. People there tend to post things, like how LG is in the mix too. There have been several articles in the past year about other products in the pipeline from LG and Intel, targeting Atom and Snapdragon.

And you call me stupid? Snapdragon is Qualcomm, not ARM. It's partially based on some of the old ARM core architecture, and has a compatibility mode that lets it run some ARM binaries, but it's not at all ARM. That's like saying an Athlon is an Intel chip. In any case, there's a lot more in the package than just the processor core. Lots of that won't translate back to the N900, or the N9 for that matter.

Atom. Since it's core is pulled mainly from Moblin, which was specifically for Atom. Remember the other partner in this? Intel? They seem to think that's why they're in this:

According to Intel, MeeGo was developed because Microsoft did not offer comprehensive Windows 7 support for the Atom processor.

ARM wasn't a target for Moblin. The "big task" for Nokia was doing work to port Moblin to ARM, and more specifically to add their sub architecture and supplemental drivers.

I know quite a bit about MeeGo, and it's origins. Someone who doesn't know the difference between a Cortex and a Snapdragon shouldn't be throwing stones when they're not well versed themselves...

Pipeline = future, not past. With the exception of the N9, all those devices are finished production. I talking about what's in the pipeline, meaning what's coming in the future. Again, who's ignorant?

Most don't see them as computers in the proper sense. Most systems using ARM chips are NOT computers in a proper sense. Is an oven timer a computer? How about a shake dispenser at McDonalds, is that a computer? How about a car alarm? They all use ARM processors, but most people wouldn't consider them a computer. And yes, on this forum people may know that ARM is a type of CPU, and that it happens to be the CPU in our N900s. But most people, even those here, don't know how wide-spread the family is, or how used they are in common electronics. And those that do know that a CPU is not a "computer" in common language.

You left out "recently produced and readily available". Sorry, MeeGo porting to the FreeRunner is great and all, but there were only about 2,000 of those made. They're not available for sale any more. They're not easy to come by. Again... READ what I'm writing.

And tell me... how is a Beagleboard at all like an N9? Did you not read where I said Nokia chose the N900 because it was the closest match with it's upcoming products? Perhaps it was confusion over the term pipeline still.

*palm-face* Did you read what I wrote? Did you even bother to read it at all? Did you NOT read the part where I said, yes, Nokia paid for it, and made the obvious choice to port it to the N900 because it was the closest thing to their future pipeline?

Really? You're going to use that as an example? Who gives a flying crap about video call support on Google? LOTS of devices don't support video call. In fact, there are very few that do!

What's more, most people don't want or use video calls. They're cumbersome. Most people don't even CALL these days. It's all texting unless you're trying to call a business or and older person who hasn't gotten the gist of texting yet. I have tons of friends with iPhones, not one has made a "Facetime" call since about 2 weeks after it was rolled out, with the exception of one deaf friend who uses it to call his mother every couple weeks.

Considering the N900 was barely even sold in the US (where I'm from), pretty much nobody here using one is the "average user". We're talking about a niche device here.

You'll note, I didn't say "average user". I said "average N900 user". I'm talking about the market the device was targeted toward. The N900 (with rare exception) was not marketed to the average consumer. It was targeted at a group of tech-savy people that wanted an open-source device with few limitations. Something they could build their own apps for, and tweak to their hearts desire, without needing to side-load, or root, or hack to get basic functionality.

Or as you would say, the "average user" for the N900 "knows what ARM is". Even for people that are tech savy, MeeGo is not ready as a day-to-day replacement for Maemo. You acknowledge this, and acknowledge that that's not likely to change before it's stale, but still seem to think MeeGo is somehow the future.

TacoBell is targeting me too. They send me coupons, and advertise all over the place. They even built a location near me! Do I have to patronize every group that targets me? No.

I'm contributing here, and in other endeavors that matter more to me. If video-calls were the thing I cared about most in life, maybe I'd be working on MeeGo. But Maemo does all I wanted and more. And frankly, MeeGo has been less than impressive.

Nokia didn't contribute to MeeGoCE as an effort to release stuff for their old device. If you think that then you're really nieve. Don't fool yourself. This wasn't a benevolent act on the part of Nokia. It was a calculated move, made to further their own goals, which have since shifted drastically due to a management change that nobody saw coming.

Nokia did this because they needed a test platform before their next launch. They probably also thought that just maybe, with enough luck, they could snag some of the developers into the new camp and get some good free labor.

The N900 has a very different form factor from the N800 series, and most importantly has GSM capabilities. That drastically changes the user base (and it's size), especially in a market where "smart phones" are the big thing. I wouldn't want an N8x0. I have plenty of Intel based tablets at home, and have seen lots of other tablets, pre and post iPad. But I pre-ordered an N900... twice. What you're calling the "virtually same device" has no appeal to me. The fact that you consider them equal makes me rethink what you present as fact...


And I'm getting tired of you telling lies about what I've said, but that doesn't seem to stop you. (See more below...)

It's clear now that you don't know the history of MeeGo. MeeGo's core is based on Moblin, which was started by Intel. MeeGo (the merging of Moblin and Maemo) is essentially the Moblin core with some Maemo folded in. But you don't have to take my word for that, here, read the MeeGo FAQ, question 4:

In that regard, when the merge started (as MeeGo was being announced) there was no ARM support. Both parties blended in ARM support by folding in Maemo code and pulling Maemo resources to help convert the parts of the Moblin core that needed it to handle ARM. The question of if ARM was even going to be supported was apparently so commonly asked that it made it on the list (see question 10 of the link above).

You mean when you lie and say I said things I've never said? Oh, look, you did it again. I've never said "I meant to say". Did you do a thread search? I did... Guess what... never said it. In fact, I only said "meant" once this entire thread, and not in the context you're implying.

And by saying "you should have understood", that's the polite way to point out that you should have known something (like pipeline = future) without just coming straight out and calling you stupid. It's called tact. You should try it some time.

Ah... I see the problem now. You think you're "at war" with me. I'm just trying to have a discussion. I suppose that's why you're calling names (stupid, etc), being insulting, and repeatedly claiming I've said things I've never said. You're responding emotionally, and frankly becoming more insulting and wild by the post.

Let me know if you want to actually talk about facts again some time. Until then, have fun with abil.

Btw: Google != facts. Try Googling "Big-Foot pictures"... tons of them. So Big-Foot exists?! I can Google it.. it must be factual, right?

The problem for me is i do not want to talk to deaf ears and looking at the comments to all your explanations that are VERY good and VERY well put together, they are arguing with you and telling you that your posts are FUD.

I am normally used to dealing with PROPER developers who actually CAN see a problem pointed out by someone, anyone, unlike this lot you got on here who are supposed to be developers for the meego project.

They are either deaf blind and can not read English or they are just not prepared to admit failure, the latter i think is the case.

Meego should have at least moved on to be a flashable OS for the device, any device, and is still currently a VERY BASIC image run from SD.

It has very basic functionality and is not even capable of running the hardware of, in this case, the n900 as it falls short in all the area's stated by you.

Woody your doing an excellent job of trying to explain to these developers and your words are just not being noted in any way or form, instead they come back with argument against you, now do you really expect me to join in with you against these people knowing full well what will come out of it ?.

These developers really ARE either plain ignorant or plain stupid by playing games with words when at the end of the day NOTHING has moved forward, NOTHING has been agreed of the points you have made as they repeatably ignore from your posts.

IF i was troubleshooting this project the first thing that would have to happen is the developers involved MUST listen to anothers point of view such as yours instead of placing argument against you.

I have said this before and i will say it again... these lot need out of this project and new developers in because NOTHING they will listen too and NOTHING they will agree too as they come back in pure argument against ALL views against there development policies and progress.

My view after looking at all the replies on here is that they should give up and forget meego and go back to school and learn about PROGRESSION and how to put together a BASIC os from the first component to the very last in the device they are working too.

The team are so incapable of doing this, instead they use words and actually CRITISISE anyone who even dare try to tell them they are not only behind in there development but also incapable of moving forward and have no respect whatsoever for anyone outside of the project.

I am done with arguing with them because i will never get into this backward argument your having with them and the very reason i will not go into technical detail (you have done an exceptional job of this with them) because of there ignorance and the pure inability to even listen to
another point of view or critisism of there failing work.

Better you give up also with them woody because no ground will ever be gained with them.

These people should never have been allowed to touch meego development along with stskeeps as they have the wrong attitude from start to finnish.

I am truly sorry to be so blunt but i feel completely at a loss as to how ground can be made against such ignorance of these so called meego developers.

May i suggest ALL meego developers re-read all your posts and start over again with a different realisation of proper development.

"MUST listen to anothers point of view"

Just goes to show how ignorant you really are !.

You get away with swearing like that because you put it inside animation, how about you put as much ingenuity into the meego project !.