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gerbick
2009-06-25 , 14:10
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#251
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
gerbick, thanks for trying to give business lessons to Nokia, TI and other partners involved in the hardware and software discussed in this thread. Still, there are a couple of details you should consider.
Thanks for hiding behind a vapid, nebulous term as "business decisions" when honestly you've answered absolutely nothing other than announce a non-announcement. Simply put, make something happen or otherwise this is yet another non-announcement and indicative of that nothing productive in terms of prior iterations of so-called future-proof hardware and OS sold under the guise of fully-opensource will yet be another notch in the belt of marketing promise and lacking delivery.

I'm quite sure that the quotes of "fully open" are quite remembered by those that found out it wasn't. Please start with considering that first. Sell a fake promise, deliver something years later.

Way to go.

- The hardware for graphics acceleration is there as part of a pack. It's not that Nokia puts it on purpose only to decide that will not be used. It doesn't make business sense to to remove that piece of hardware from the configuration.
I quite understand this. I remember that we had to support SGI 320 and 540's back in the day. They had a firewire connection that was essentially useless due to licensing and SGI just simply was not going to pay Apple their fee per machine for licensing. It was just part of the chipset that came on those motherboards.

Guess what? You didn't find Firewire support advertised. Can't say the same for Nokia's claims (see above).

- Nokia would need to pay for those drivers if they would be shipped as part of the product. It doesn't make business sense to do so when such drivers are not used by the OS and when assuring their commercial quality would add more cost.
And now they can be used by a dead OS that you've all but killed?

Even unsupported would have encouraged 2 years of tinkering in advance to when Nokia decided to pull support.

- Nokia doesn't own the drivers. It's not Nokia the company that is doing the nice move to provide in a way or another those drivers now to the community. It's TI and the partners involved that have the IPR and the resources to do the move.
This I understand. But where was this information when the machines were released?

If you want to complain about Fremantle not being compatible with OMAP2 devices that's fine, but this is not related to this thread and there are already others where this topic has been discussed.
I wish to complain about how you didn't announce any of this the day these machines came out and addressed it years later. Silence in this form for so long is misleading in quite a few ways.

When the next machine comes out; I'm quite sure you will have a few people wait and ask more educated questions that upon delivery of non-answers will result in a backlash of "Remember how they treated their prior customers..." due to prior claims made that were not followed through by Nokia.

Simply put, I hope that even you can understand that fully-opensource means just that. The N800/N810 were sold under that guise and it was a lie. My complaint is real, actual, and now louder due to revelations like this.

And my complaint is well inline with the rest of this thread. You just don't want to address it. And that's ok too... I understand that it doesn't quite fit into your connotation of "business sense".

And I know it never will.
 

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fredoll is offline fredoll
2009-06-25 , 15:07
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#252
I don't think I ever saw Nokia advertising the 3D chip in the N8x0 or their 3D capable graphics driver ...
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qole is offline qole
2009-06-25 , 15:25
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#253
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
... to allow your established base to languish and have the community become bigger heroes than the originator of the software...
...is an unprecedented Open Software win for Nokia.

So many companies let their software languish but also never let the community step up and become heroes because they won't share the old code, even though it is old and the company has moved on. Has Microsoft released the source code for Windows 3.1?

But Nokia is opening it up! Win!
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Last edited by qole; 2009-06-25 at 15:28.
 

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lcuk is offline lcuk
2009-06-25 , 15:47
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#254
Originally Posted by qole View Post
...is an unprecedented Open Software win for Nokia.

So many companies let their software languish but also never let the community step up and become heroes because they won't share the old code, even though it is old and the company has moved on. Has Microsoft released the source code for Windows 3.1?

But Nokia is opening it up! Win!
absolutely spot on.
I've been grinning from ear to ear after hearing about this and really hope it comes through.
even though a driver may not be fully utilized and may be buggy and all of the possible problems that may come with it, it will be there to work on and expand and improve.

i personally think the n8x0 line are outstanding devices and can hold their own against many other machines, in just the same way the 770 has outlasted its sellby date, so will this generation.
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lardman is offline lardman
2009-06-25 , 16:13
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#255
This is really good news, many thanks Quim. I look forward to some hacking

@Gerbick: You're after continued support. It's not going to come from Nokia for whatever reasons (the fact that my phone has never had any updates and still does what I bought it for 2 years ago comes to mind).

Where you will get support is Mer, this is a project which is designed to keep the software running on our (now out-of-date) hardware up-to-date and running nicely and to experiment with new and cool software (3D comes to mind).

Depending on the design of the drivers, you may be able to hack them into working on Chinook/Diablo, but that's up to you, I'll be using Mer and looking forward.
 

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javispedro is offline javispedro
2009-06-25 , 18:06
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#256
I am worried about the technical issues (framebuffer size and all that). How are we going to get Clutter if it requires whole screen 3D acceleration, but the framebuffer cannot contain 800x480?

I guess it's still too early to worry about this. Let's celebrate!
 
gerbick
2009-06-25 , 18:33
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#257
Originally Posted by qole View Post
...is an unprecedented Open Software win for Nokia.
I'm not doubting that. I just hope this community doesn't fracture like the Zaurus community had done before it.

So many companies let their software languish but also never let the community step up and become heroes because they won't share the old code, even though it is old and the company has moved on. Has Microsoft released the source code for Windows 3.1?

But Nokia is opening it up! Win!
It's a "win"... but at what level? Enthusiast level will benefit, no doubt. But it means nothing to an average consumer that has yet to install the ability to obtain root or the other hacks on this board.

In the meantime, I have to bone up and learn a ton more from you guys in the community.

However, I feel as if I can still voice my opinion in regards to Nokia treatment of this position - it just doesn't make sense to me.
 
gerbick
2009-06-25 , 18:41
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#258
Originally Posted by fredoll View Post
I don't think I ever saw Nokia advertising the 3D chip in the N8x0 or their 3D capable graphics driver ...
Originally Posted by Nokia.com
The Nokia N810 features a highly customizable user interface and contains various novelties such as a Mozilla based browser with Ajax and Adobe flash 9, Bluetooth headset support as well as enhanced video and audio features.
Upon research, it was discovered that the 3D chipset was also present and speculation was that it was going to be utilized as well.

That speculation was community level; however words like "enhanced video" right after a chipset term like bluetooth added with the speculation... you're 100% right though.

Not advertised. But definitely speculated. I can take that blame though fully on myself for falling for the speculation. But it does exist, the chipset that is...
 
Frank Banul is offline Frank Banul
2009-06-25 , 18:43
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#259
When I looked at this, the limitation on frame buffer was for the internal LCD controller, not the 3D accelerator which if I recall correctly can use internal memory. Now the problem is still how do you get the internal frame buffer out to the external LCD controller in a timely manner. This seems like it would limit total frame rate.

Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
I am worried about the technical issues (framebuffer size and all that). How are we going to get Clutter if it requires whole screen 3D acceleration, but the framebuffer cannot contain 800x480?

I guess it's still too early to worry about this. Let's celebrate!
Frank
 

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danramos is offline danramos
2009-06-25 , 19:15
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#260
Originally Posted by JustNick View Post
I don't understand all this complaining now...
It made sense some time ago, when n8x0s were something new and not everybody knew about the omap2 resolution limit...
Nokia wanted a piece of hardware that was enough small to be almost pocketable and yet with a resolution and a screen size that could make the web experience as good as possible for the user... and I think Nokia hit just right with the NITs.
The Omap2 was pretty much bleeding edge for the time being, unfortunately its limits regarding the 640x480 max resolution pushed Nokia to use a serial LCD (a quite good one too) that gave users 160 more columns but deprived them of native 3D HW acceleration...
Now, after two years, we see the possibility of a new feature being pushed into our beloved devices thanks to Nokia commitment and the efforts of the community... I can't be anything else than grateful.
The problem is the hobbling and crippling for two years. Why did I buy something I was told was based on open-source (and I remember the tagline being marched out repeatedly by Nokia was "future proof because it's based on open-source") but then the gotchas are that just about every driver was closed and even some of the included applications. You only find out that it's PORTIONS of the system are open-source after you've already purchased and you read the ABOUT dialog or the paper documentation inside the box... but the promises of EVENTUALLY getting open-sourced drivers hangs some of us in there.. two years later we're only JUST being told that maybe we'll get the crippled video driver opened up.

I appreciate the opening up. I can not appreciate the distant amount of time it took to do so. Basically, the argument that this was the "right time" reads to me as "now that nobody wants that hardware anymore because we have these NEW chipsets that we're also going to close-source the drivers for..."

I also don't understand how it's a good business move either. I'm MORE likely to keep my old hardware now--and VERY VERY unlikely to want to buy the newer hardware... which I would LIKE to get, but the security and value and understanding of a fully open architecure is a much higher value to somebody like me, that has to configure solutions for people that are using the hardware, than the increased resources of the new hardware. The moment someone else DOES come out with a NEW piece of more open hardware, you KNOW I will pounce on it and so will the people I support and talk to.

Really, this is great news. It's just bittersweet news. I can't get TOO excited. It's like being told to be thankful you're getting table scraps. If you're hungry enough, there's no reason not to be thankful but... really? Is that the way to treat people who're ready to open their wallet to you?
 
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