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2009-01-12
, 07:41
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 1,123 times |
Joined on Sep 2005
@ Helsinki
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#252
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Originally Posted by Texrat
No, I've not been saying that. I've tried to say for several times, so I'll say it again
Do you realize I'm not really looking for a win, but was just making a joke?
Anyway, I got from ragnar's arguments that he wants support for a d-pad or other such hardware eliminated completely. If my interpretation is wrong, mea culpa. I'd rather it be in the HAL and not supported by Nokia for whatever reason than completely removed.
, that the approach should be "support, but do not require". If you imagine building a platform with a whole bunch of devices - perhaps one day - a key way to differentiate devices is through their hardware characteristics, keys being one important part of it. So if you want to do a gaming device, you put gaming keys; a music device, put music keys; for device with a camera, a camera shutter key etc. Provided hard keys make the device different and unique, and also offer some benefit. But then again, the software should also work (practically) without any HW keys.
A camera key is an easy key to add, since it's easy to specify the functionality and the functionality makes sense in all cases.
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2009-01-12
, 07:47
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Posts: 397 |
Thanked: 227 times |
Joined on May 2007
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#253
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Ok, so the usability testing has showed no D-PAD, how about keyboard?
"So if you want to do a gaming device, you put gaming keys; a music device, put music keys; for device with a camera, a camera shutter key etc."
Since we know that the new device won't be an "Internet tablet", what will it be then and what keys will there be?
"So if you want to do a gaming device, you put gaming keys; a music device, put music keys; for device with a camera, a camera shutter key etc."
Since we know that the new device won't be an "Internet tablet", what will it be then and what keys will there be?
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2009-01-12
, 08:38
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 1,123 times |
Joined on Sep 2005
@ Helsinki
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#254
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Originally Posted by ColdFusion
I could tell you about the new device, but then I'd have to kill the internet.
Ok, so the usability testing has showed no D-PAD, how about keyboard?
Since we know that the new device won't be an "Internet tablet", what will it be then and what keys will there be?
Anyway, hardware keyboards are good for text input, I guess we all know this already. Keyboards a) give haptics both before pressing keys (feeling where you are) and after pressing keys (the latter can be emulated, but the former is much harder), b) using a HW keyboard doesn't block half or the whole of the screen like an on-screen keyboard does, preservering the context better and simplifying the UI, c) error rates are usually smaller.
Then again, just like with other hardware keys, it's a question of positioning a device, as for something where people type a lot or then type a little. A keyboard adds cost, mechanical complexity, size and weight to a device. The UI should also work in a device without a hardware keyboard.
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2009-01-12
, 08:39
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#255
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Originally Posted by ragnar
Yes, of course it has. We in Maemo Software do do usability testing, outside the company and with target users. We have a great team in place for it. I've personally been observing tests and reading test results for five years now, so I do feel that I have some factual basis also in my opinions. After all, I try to form my opinions based on what I see real, average users do, say and behave.
And now it's been several years with a D-pad device (770 and N800) and also several years with the N810 device without a D-pad, so I do dare to say that a) most users didn't really use the D-pad when they had one with the 770 and the N800 and b) more importantly, most users do not miss it when it is gone from the front cover with the N810. "Most users" of course means that not everybody acts the same, but "most" is a better target than "some"
I can claim the same and, looking around at the other people around me in real-life usability, they DO often use the DPAD because they just naturally prefer it sometimes. I must, then, claim that MY observations are in complete disagreement with your claimed observations and since I actually SEE these people using their N800's (techies and VERY non-techies alike), I believe my observations to be more valid that yours. So there.
Actually, on a more serious note, though... at least two of the people I know who ended up buying N800's COULD have bought N810's but actually DID point out that they chose the N800 over the N810 because of the lack of the d-pad on the face and the lack of TWO SD slots (really, who wants microSD? And only one?). Most of my other coworkers and friends who have one decided that they were glad they already had an N800 and had no plans to upgrade to an N810 despite the built-in GPS and keyboard. So far, I've not run into anyone (offline, in the real world) with an N810.
Last edited by danramos; 2009-01-12 at 18:53.
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2009-01-12
, 09:12
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Posts: 3,404 |
Thanked: 4,474 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ Germany
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#256
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Originally Posted by ragnar
No problem. As we all know, you can delete the "Internet" by dragging the blue "e"-symbol into the trashcan.
I could tell you about the new device, but then I'd have to kill the internet.
Originally Posted by ragnar
This sounds like it won't have a hw keyboard.
Then again, just like with other hardware keys, it's a question of positioning a device, as for something where people type a lot or then type a little. A keyboard adds cost, mechanical complexity, size and weight to a device. The UI should also work in a device without a hardware keyboard.
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2009-01-12
, 09:59
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Posts: 397 |
Thanked: 227 times |
Joined on May 2007
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#257
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Originally Posted by ragnar
I could tell you about the new device, but then I'd have to kill the internet.
This sounds like it won't have a hw keyboard.
I guess it'd look like the device shown on the summit in the slideshow.
What big events like CES are there this year where Nokia might announce the new device?
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2009-01-12
, 10:12
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#258
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Originally Posted by allnameswereout
I simply can't follow you any more.
I can't see the use of some parts optimized for d-pad and/or hardware_keys, other parts for stylus, and yet other parts for finger. I'td imply every UI developer must keep 2 or 3 modus operandi in mind which would start at Nokia Fremantle development.
a) I never talked about optimizing for fingers. On the contrary, I said a finger UI usually fails and therefore shouldn't be considered much.
b) I also don't say that different parts of the UI should be optimized for different input methods. Why make everything so complicated? Most graphical GUIs I know can be used with hardware keys (you can use Windows/Gnome/... more efficiently with the keyboard than with the mouse). This includes all versions of maemo so far: There's nothing "optimized for stylus" or "optimized for D-Pad", still you can use both to cotrol the device. (And you can also control the whole UI with a bluetooth keyboard without even touching it... I wonder how this would work if the UI wasn't made to accept hardware keys.)
Originally Posted by allnameswereout
The hype will vanish, I'm sure.
On a side note, if you believe the paradigm of finger touchscreens is indeed non-existant you must believe these people who buy devices such as iPhone, BlackBerry Storm, HTC Touch Diamond, Nokia 5800 are lunatics; IOW, not understand how they're able to even use their device, let alone prefer the device.
I don't buy this. Something which is completely junk and does at its core nothing cannot become popular. There must be something right, and it cannot be placebo. The happy hormones gained from buying device X whither away at some point after which ratio takes command. If it was utter crap, we'd see 'em sold en masse on eBay, and any kind of hype would sooner rather than later vanish.
Also, people do get irritated by their jPhones etc. the longer they use them. There are other mechanisms that keep them loyal customers. (One thing that's great about Apple, for example, is the complete "all in one" experience you get with the ecosystem around iTunes, the Pods, the phone and a OSX computer. If you want this experience, you have to cope with the shortcomings of the UI.) - Also, people tend to stand up for their own decisions even though they prove wrong afterwards. And finally: Yes, we do see touch devices returned in large numbers when factors like these don't play a role. Like when employees were given touch screen devices (HTC) as company phones and returned them in favor of the alternative, a plain SonyEricsson K550i.
Originally Posted by allnameswereout
... all valid points for not having a touch only UI but having a choice. People are different. Let's not force them all into the same way of using the UI.
I can also imagine some people just don't like a screen of that size with their fingers touching it. Texrat mentioned the lifetime of the touchscreen. I'm sure there are other examples. Like people with big fingers. A stylus is a fixed size; fingers are not.
Originally Posted by allnameswereout
Besides that, you must learn your muscles to adjust --so to say. Acquiring decent precision takes time. Same is true for painting, or spinning vinyl. Some might never learn it, other have a gift for it, most take some average time to 'get acustomed to it'. Which is why I wanted you to reflect about how long you used these devices you mentioned.
I'm 41 years old and had a lot of UIs... from my Atari 400, MS-DOS, Windows (1.0, 3.11, 95, 98/Me, NT, 2000, XP, Vista), KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, OS2005-2008, a number of phones by different manufacturers, VCRs and DVD players,...
Yes, it may take a few hours or so to feel comfortable and at home, but if a UI requires people to adjust their muscles and do some training as for painting... and then, some will still never learn it, while other happen to "have a gift"... then there's something seriously wrong with it. Any UI has to adapt to the people who use it, not the other way round.
The iPod Touch I had for about a week; MO-FR, IIRC. - The jPhone I returned on the 2nd day, but play with it every now and then as a friend of mine desperately tries to convince me that using it will save the whales and free Tibet.
Originally Posted by allnameswereout
... again, I'm completely lost here. I don't understand what you're talking about. Why should a scollbar "know"? It didn't in OS2005 and it was fine the way it was.
How does the scrollbar know whether you are using your finger or your stylus? By default it cannot. You'd need either a hardware key, or detection on-the-fly. In the case of the latter, a big scrollbar optimized for touch UI uses already space of the screen so why use the smaller one for stylus if you want to allow either? And suddenly, slowly but surely your whole UIis finger optimized... woops! Again, I don't think either would be easy to implement so one has to pick either finger or stylus.
Anyway, we're so far off topic here, it doesn't matter anymore.
Originally Posted by allnameswereout
.... click on an image to save it or copy its location. View HTML source (of page or frame or selection). Open frame in new window. Open link in new window/tab. Perform some action to trigger what's "mouseover" on a desktop. Zoom in/out. View image properies. View link properties. .... Quite few things to accomplish when all you have for input is the press of a finger.
When browing a user usually wants to either read or scroll.
What are the other reasons? 1) Clicking on a link (to go to there, or to copy it) 2) Selecting text to copy/paste it.
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2009-01-12
, 10:13
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Posts: 14 |
Thanked: 4 times |
Joined on Sep 2008
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#259
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one SPECIFIC use for a d-pad that I use all the time which I can't see a non-hardware key replacement for - smoothly scrolling 'down the page' for pdfs, webpages, long emails etc.
This is actually one of the MAIN uses I have for my device (apart from playing 'blocks') that I can't see a touch ui resolution for.
can anyone tell me how it would work, or does on an iphone etc?
This is actually one of the MAIN uses I have for my device (apart from playing 'blocks') that I can't see a touch ui resolution for.
can anyone tell me how it would work, or does on an iphone etc?
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2009-01-12
, 10:24
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#260
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Originally Posted by ragnar
Are these real usability tests or do you just take people from the street and ask them to perform certain tasks on a certain UI (or variants of a UI)? This "people from the street"-approach is the one I know and it doesn't give you any usable input except when designing websites that are expected to be used only once in a while.
Yes, of course it has. We in Maemo Software do do usability testing, outside the company and with target users. We have a great team in place for it.
A real usability test would maybe take into account some first time users, but focus on experienced long-time users.
The problem with what companies define as "usability" these days is they tend to focus on the short-time experience. That's logical from a commercial point of view (you have to attract those who use the device only for a short time, like journalists, or only try it once in the shop), but it makes applications inefficient for every day use. IMHO, efficiency in every day use is much more important than intuitive and easy first-time use.
Originally Posted by ragnar
??? the N810 does have a D-pad. Doesn't yours?
And now it's been several years with a D-pad device (770 and N800) and also several years with the N810 device without a D-pad,
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And now it's been several years with a D-pad device (770 and N800) and also several years with the N810 device without a D-pad, so I do dare to say that a) most users didn't really use the D-pad when they had one with the 770 and the N800 and b) more importantly, most users do not miss it when it is gone from the front cover with the N810. "Most users" of course means that not everybody acts the same, but "most" is a better target than "some"